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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 16 2014, 05:51 PM   #361
DonIago
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Perhaps samples of the unique species would be placed in stasis to br repopulated elsewhere, in a best-case scenario.
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Old March 16 2014, 08:37 PM   #362
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
I think that the revolutionary medical benefits to billions and billions of sentient Alpha Quadrant species outweighs the loss of some unique species of birds and fish.
I disagree. All life is precious and when we are explorers, the Federation shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You are bringing your own morality to the question. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states, the lines become less clear between us and rest of the life on the planet.

DonIago wrote: View Post
Perhaps samples of the unique species would be placed in stasis to br repopulated elsewhere, in a best-case scenario.
Supposition. This is never addressed in the movie. How would you like to be the sample left of your culture, bred to keep the species alive?
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Old March 16 2014, 09:28 PM   #363
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I'd rather shoot myself in the head than know that through my own inaction I allowed even millions of people to suffer.

In any case, I'd rather be responsible for helping to keep my species alive than let my species go extinct. How is that even a question?
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Old March 16 2014, 09:33 PM   #364
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd rather shoot myself in the head than know that through my own inaction I allowed even millions of people to suffer.

In any case, I'd rather be responsible for helping to keep my species alive than let my species go extinct. How is that even a question?
Because it is damaging to the environment. I would rather the Federation study the rings for 10-20 years and find a way to synthesize the rings than let them destroy an entire planet worth of life.
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Old March 16 2014, 10:47 PM   #365
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

You have no evidence that the Federation plan involved destroying the planet's lifeforms as opposed to relocating and/or repopulating them. For all we know Dougherty wasn't planning to move ahead for weeks or months. Ru'afo may have only accelerated matters because of Picard's interference.

Your plan involves letting millions suffer essentially needlessly for 10-20 years, and that's only assuming that the Federation -can- synthesize the rings' properties. I'm not saying that it's not a better option from an environmental standpoint, but it certainly doesn't seem more humane.
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Old March 16 2014, 10:55 PM   #366
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I don't remember if it was mentioned, but do we know for sure that the collected particles (or whatever it was) would work away from that specific environment? If it hasn't been tested, destroying a planet is a pretty big gamble if there is no guaranteed payoff.
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Old March 16 2014, 11:27 PM   #367
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I think that the revolutionary medical benefits to billions and billions of sentient Alpha Quadrant species outweighs the loss of some unique species of birds and fish.
I disagree. All life is precious and when we are explorers, the Federation shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You are bringing your own morality to the question. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states, the lines become less clear between us and rest of the life on the planet.

DonIago wrote: View Post
Perhaps samples of the unique species would be placed in stasis to br repopulated elsewhere, in a best-case scenario.
Supposition. This is never addressed in the movie. How would you like to be the sample left of your culture, bred to keep the species alive?


I have seen no data that plants have culture or emotional states. Also, fish don't have complex inner mental states nor do they have much of a sense of personal identity. Moreover, I doubt that you live by the moral code that you mention in the post. If there's a fire in a house do you put equal effort into trying to save the hamster as you do the family inside?


Of course if they can preserve some of the animals and plants they should, but again, the needs of sentient billions outweigh the needs of some plants and animals.
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Old March 17 2014, 12:02 AM   #368
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
I don't remember if it was mentioned, but do we know for sure that the collected particles (or whatever it was) would work away from that specific environment? If it hasn't been tested, destroying a planet is a pretty big gamble if there is no guaranteed payoff.
Howso? The planet was essentially valueless aside from the rings. Worst-case scenario, you've turned an almost-worthless planet entirely worthless. Best-case scenario, you've alleviated the suffering of millions or more.

Would destroying Ceti Alpha V post-TWoK be a big gamble?

Whether destroying a planet is a big gamble depends on the planet in question.
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Old March 17 2014, 12:43 AM   #369
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I disagree. [...] shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states, the lines become less clear between us and rest of the life on the planet.
'birds or flowers'? lol
If you have this 'more and more data', then it should be no problem to produce said 'more and more data'.
Let's see it.
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Old March 17 2014, 02:22 AM   #370
HaventGotALife
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I disagree. [...] shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states, the lines become less clear between us and rest of the life on the planet.
'birds or flowers'? lol
If you have this 'more and more data', then it should be no problem to produce said 'more and more data'.
Let's see it.
I wasn't referring to birds when I said "culture," but a simple Google search brought up something interesting (Do Birds hold Funerals?)

I suggest reading "The Moral Lives of Animals" by Dale Peterson and "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates" by Frans De Waal.

Laugh all you want, but Primates are known to carry around a dead child on their back for days, to cry over their body. Elephants can have post-traumatic stress disorder.

This indicates more than an emotional state. It indicates symbolism.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:07 AM   #371
Edit_XYZ
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife
You actually call what you posted 'more and more data'? Really?

'data' means peer reviewed papers, not propaganda from people with an agenda. BTW, actually read your blog post about birds and funerals - and see what the peer reviewed paper linked there actually says.

As for the rest - I see you went from plants to primates. Talk about moving the goal-posts.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:31 AM   #372
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I disagree. [...] shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states, the lines become less clear between us and rest of the life on the planet.
'birds or flowers'? lol
If you have this 'more and more data', then it should be no problem to produce said 'more and more data'.
Let's see it.
I wasn't referring to birds when I said "culture," but a simple Google search brought up something interesting (Do Birds hold Funerals?)

I suggest reading "The Moral Lives of Animals" by Dale Peterson and "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates" by Frans De Waal.

Laugh all you want, but Primates are known to carry around a dead child on their back for days, to cry over their body. Elephants can have post-traumatic stress disorder.

This indicates more than an emotional state. It indicates symbolism.


As EDIT_XYZ wrote, you abruptly switched from birds, fish, and plants to PRIMATES, which of course are biologically much closer to Humans and DO have complex emotional states and cultures. That's a totally different place from where you started.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:36 AM   #373
HaventGotALife
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

'birds or flowers'? lol
If you have this 'more and more data', then it should be no problem to produce said 'more and more data'.
Let's see it.
I wasn't referring to birds when I said "culture," but a simple Google search brought up something interesting (Do Birds hold Funerals?)

I suggest reading "The Moral Lives of Animals" by Dale Peterson and "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates" by Frans De Waal.

Laugh all you want, but Primates are known to carry around a dead child on their back for days, to cry over their body. Elephants can have post-traumatic stress disorder.

This indicates more than an emotional state. It indicates symbolism.


As EDIT_XYZ wrote, you abruptly switched from birds, fish, and plants to PRIMATES, which of course are biologically much closer to Humans and DO have complex emotional states and cultures. That's a totally different place from where you started.
I wasn't talking about plants and birds. I have already stated that. Go re-read it. It talks about ALL LIFE, not just birds and flowers, which is what is shown in the film. It's a misunderstanding because you didn't read what was said.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:41 AM   #374
Edit_XYZ
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife
?
You WERE talking about 'birds and flowers' - and putting the equal sign between killing them and killing humans.
Do you actually think rhetorical double speak can obfuscate this?
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Old March 17 2014, 03:46 AM   #375
HaventGotALife
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife
?
You WERE talking about 'birds and flowers' - and putting the equal sign between killing them and killing humans.
Do you actually think rhetorical double speak can obfuscate this?
sonak wrote: View Post
I think that the revolutionary medical benefits to billions and billions of sentient Alpha Quadrant species outweighs the loss of some unique species of birds and fish.
I disagree. All life is precious and when we are explorers, the Federation shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You are bringing your own morality to the question. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states, the lines become less clear between us and rest of the life on the planet.
I changed from talking about the life to talking about an interpretation that puts sentient beings like humans above all other life on the planet. It's not double-speak. Read.
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