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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 22 2014, 10:15 PM   #271
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

they were removing the Baku, not killing them.
I'm responding to your they should have had the movie about a fuel source by pointing out the only fuel source the federation goes to any trouble to get in the 24th century is on a type planet that the Ba'ku would have to be a very different form of life to live on to the point that they can't live on M-class planets, since M-class planets don't have toxic (by human standards) atmosphere and temperatures that may or may not cause humans to burst into flames.

So the federation needs another one of those types of planets to move them too as a hypothetical Ba'ku that could survive on a Y-class planet where the only fuel the federation hasn't figured out how no run out of would probably be incapable of survivng on an M-class planet.

Of course this also doesn't acount for the fact that the federation doesn't have to relocate them if they were just trying to get fuel as they could just mine it on the other side of the planet. So again changing the film from vainity particles to a fuel source doesn't really work.

Basically I'm shooting holes in your the film would work better if the conflict was over a fuel source by pointing out the problems with that.

DonIago wrote: View Post
We all know how this turns out anyway...six months after the Baku planet's been saved and Our Heroes are done patting themselves on their backs, Section 31 swoops in with their own collector and vacuums the rings dry.
Well unless Picard is around and stops them a which point he probably gets a medal for stopping the rouge terrorist group Section 31 from yet another of their criminal enterprises.

Also probably killing any further attempts at relocation since nothing practically kills any good points for the relocation side then being seen as in leauge with treasonous (what with their spying on the elected government they have no regard for) terrorists.

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.

You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.
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Old January 23 2014, 12:17 AM   #272
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.
Except none of the fuel sources they use would require mining that would make the planet unlivable.

Plus none of them are rare enough that they would have to bother with the Ba'ku in the first place.

Besides anything the film would use to to shift the balance of the Dominion War would likely be ignored seeing as the DS9 writers probably don't want the film guys stepping on their toes.
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Old January 23 2014, 12:44 AM   #273
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Insurrection strikes me as one of those movies that could do with a lose/win ending.

* Collector explodes.
* The crew stand on the bridge and watch as the rings ignite. The planet is doomed. The rings blaze. Then...
* The rings burn out, the planet is left untouch.
* The planet, the Baku, are all saved but the rings are gone. Now the Federation, the S'ona, have all lost what they were fighting over. The Baku agree to take in the S'ona refugees and settle in and seen content with the knowledge that they're going to age.

Edit To add:

* The rings burning screws up something in the atmosphere/magnetics of the planet that now most technology will no longer function on the planet and it'll be decades if not centuries before it reverts to normal. Meaning once the last S'ona and Baku leave the Enterprise and return to the planet, there's no leaving the planet in their lifetime.
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Old January 23 2014, 01:07 AM   #274
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.
Except none of the fuel sources they use would require mining that would make the planet unlivable.

Plus none of them are rare enough that they would have to bother with the Ba'ku in the first place.

Besides anything the film would use to to shift the balance of the Dominion War would likely be ignored seeing as the DS9 writers probably don't want the film guys stepping on their toes.

No, I mean that it would be a newly discovered fuel source, something much more valuable than what they have. They'd say something like "it could make our starships go faster and sustain their speeds much longer," or something like that. If you change the stakes to that, and maybe make the Baku population much larger, and you make them indigenous to the planet, then you have a much more balanced dilemma.

On the one hand, the new fuel could be a game-changer in the war, on the other, you have a large, indigenous population of peaceful inhabitants that would be removed from their homes.
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Old January 23 2014, 01:24 AM   #275
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Insurrection strikes me as one of those movies that could do with a lose/win ending.

* Collector explodes.
* The crew stand on the bridge and watch as the rings ignite. The planet is doomed. The rings blaze. Then...
* The rings burn out, the planet is left untouch.
* The planet, the Baku, are all saved but the rings are gone. Now the Federation, the S'ona, have all lost what they were fighting over. The Baku agree to take in the S'ona refugees and settle in and seen content with the knowledge that they're going to age.

Edit To add:

* The rings burning screws up something in the atmosphere/magnetics of the planet that now most technology will no longer function on the planet and it'll be decades if not centuries before it reverts to normal. Meaning once the last S'ona and Baku leave the Enterprise and return to the planet, there's no leaving the planet in their lifetime.
Of course the question is would the Ba'ku really see either of those as a loss, I mean their big motivation was just finding a planet to left alone on the immortality was probably just a nice bonus to them.

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.
Except none of the fuel sources they use would require mining that would make the planet unlivable.

Plus none of them are rare enough that they would have to bother with the Ba'ku in the first place.

Besides anything the film would use to to shift the balance of the Dominion War would likely be ignored seeing as the DS9 writers probably don't want the film guys stepping on their toes.

No, I mean that it would be a newly discovered fuel source, something much more valuable than what they have. They'd say something like "it could make our starships go faster and sustain their speeds much longer," or something like that. If you change the stakes to that, and maybe make the Baku population much larger, and you make them indigenous to the planet, then you have a much more balanced dilemma.

On the one hand, the new fuel could be a game-changer in the war, on the other, you have a large, indigenous population of peaceful inhabitants that would be removed from their homes.
So basically the Federation becomes similar to Western Civilization in the Middle East for the last couple of decades.
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Old January 23 2014, 03:13 AM   #276
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

If the Baku were really just looking for a planet to be left alone on then relocation shouldn't have been an issue for them.
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Old January 23 2014, 03:47 AM   #277
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
If the Baku were really just looking for a planet to be left alone on then relocation shouldn't have been an issue for them.
They found a planet, they were probably just annoyed that they were spied and and were about to be kidnapped on the basis that the Federation is bigger stronger and can do whatever it wants the rest of the galaxy be damned.

Honestly all the talk about the Ba'ku being assholes seems to forget that the federation at least of the TNG era is probably the biggest group of assholes in the galaxy.

I mean seriously...

1) They go around space preaching about how morally superior they are and how everyone should be like them while thumbing their noes at them.

2) They let billions die just because either they haven't reached a certain tech level (meaning they are pretty much saying pre-warp civilizations are worth spit or) or because of an insane troll logic grasp of evolution that borders on Nazi pseudoscience.

3) They sign treaties and then pretty much let to other party get away with violating them without any consequences and get pissy when their citizens don't just die like cattle.

4) They respond to an attack on one of their ships with a freaking biological weapon strike.

5) Their military leadership seems to mostly consist of corrupt and or evil officers.

6) They let nutjobs command starships and reward them with a promotion instead of locking their asses up.

7) They let a terrorist organization do whatever the hell they want.

8) They let their former allies invade the crap out of another nation with only a token condemnation and don't even bother to formal give said other nation a heads up.

9) They fork over their allies territory to another power without even talking to them first.

10) They have an entertainment device that frequently malfunctions and nearly kills them but never bother to either figure out why it keeps doing that and making sure it stops doing it or just plain not using the damned thing anymore.

11) And hell in this film their representative flat out said they were keeping their half of the particles for themselves. As in no they weren't going to share them with anyone.

12) While doing all of this they hypocritically go on about being the good guys while seemingly thinking this lets them do whatever they want regardless of who gets screwed over by it, at least the Founders are honest about treating everyone else like crap.

And the Ba'ku are the assholes just because they don't want to get kicked of their planet because the federation is pretty much admittedly too lazy to find an alternative to destroying an entire ecosystem just so they can live for a few more decades
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Old January 23 2014, 04:11 AM   #278
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
If the Baku were really just looking for a planet to be left alone on then relocation shouldn't have been an issue for them.
I don't think it's a good idea to say to Acadians "Why your ancestor's deportation should be a drama? If they simply wanted to live their life, what's the problem with their relocation. »". Forced relocation is rarely pleasant.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:20 AM   #279
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.
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Old January 23 2014, 05:14 AM   #280
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Tosk wrote: View Post
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Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.
Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.
Difficult to see what you're talking about. Americans exports vast amounts of food every year, about half of all grain on the international market is grown in America, a third of our agricultural acreage is used to grow food for export.

Unlike the Baku and the radiation from the rings, America doesn't selfishly hide the fact that we grow food.

Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A?
I would want them to rise to the shining example we set when it comes to morality.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Besides considering how much of a pain in the ass contacting people from the Briar Patch is, that's a lot of trouble to ask a species that just wants to be left alone to go to.
Spreading the news of the discovery to the galaxy might get in the way of the Baku selfishly keeping it all to themselves.

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.
You don't think the Sona actually built the collector themselves do you? S31 would get the saome people to build them a collector as the Sona did. One of the Sona's "servant races."

That's assuming that the federation council doesn't beat them to it, I firmly believe that after the council review of the matter that they would be the ones to have another collector built, followed by the federation harvesting the particles for the benefit of the federation members.

Since the well being of the federation is S31's goal, as long as the particles are collected for the federation, they'd be content.

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Old January 23 2014, 05:32 AM   #281
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

agreed


It's also why I didn't sympathized much with the Maquis "cause." What's the big deal about a specific planet as home if you live in a techno-utopia like the Federation?
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Old January 23 2014, 05:38 AM   #282
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I would want them to rise to the shining example we set when it comes to morality.
And aliens would give a rats ass about human morality why exactly?

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.
You don't think the Sona actually built the collector themselves do you? S31 would get the saome people to build them a collector as the Sona did. One of the Sona's "servant races."
And they would help them why exactly?

That's assuming that the federation council doesn't beat them to it, I firmly believe that after the council review of the matter that they would be the ones to have another collector built,
The TNG crew and Janeway not looking any younger in Nemesis along with DS9 no mentioning any magic particles seems to shoot the theory down.

followed by the federation harvesting the particles for the benefit of the federation members.
Oh so the Ba'ku not sharing the particles is bad but the federation not sharing them is good
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Old January 23 2014, 05:59 AM   #283
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Another way to have dealt with the issue, not perfect but it could have worked, is have the reveal towards the end that either the particles won't/can't work when they're harvested, the effect only works on the planet/the influence of the planet and you reverse to your original state once you leave the influence, or that Ruafo was pulling a fast one and the collector is actually a WMD the whole time and he couldn't give a shit about anything other than nuking the planet.
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Old January 23 2014, 06:02 AM   #284
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

agreed


It's also why I didn't sympathized much with the Maquis "cause." What's the big deal about a specific planet as home if you live in a techno-utopia like the Federation?
Yeah, how dare those people expect the federation not to be complete morons who negotiate a treaty with someone and let them get away with using it as toilet paper while probably laughing at them the whole time because checking to make sure the other guys are actually obeying the damned treaty

I mean seriously if the Federation didn't even notice a freaking shooting war in the DMZ just what the hell is Starfleet doing around the Federation/Cardassian playing with their thumbs.

Sheesh whats next removing the outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone, turning off all their planetary defense systems, or maybe ignoring the next Borg Cube that shows up.
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Old January 23 2014, 06:13 AM   #285
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Another way to have dealt with the issue, not perfect but it could have worked, is have the reavel towards the end that either the particles won't/can't work when they're harvested, the effect only works on the planet/the influence of the planet and you reverse to your original state once you leave the influence, or that Ruafo was pulling a fast one and the collector is actually a WMD the whole time and he couldn't give a shit about anything other than nuking the planet.
Of course if they don't find out only the collector goes that could be a surprisingly dark ending to a Star Trek movie which would also show some surprising cojones on the film makers part.

Of course this would probably have then been something that would work on a tv series so they could do explore the ramifications of the Federation unintentionally helping to commit genocide.

Because let's face it wouldn't be something that could just be dumped on a rouge group the Federation would have to deal with having just fried an entire planet of innocent people especially if the rest of the quadrant found out about it.

Might have actually made for some interesting TV.
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