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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 22 2014, 05:04 AM   #256
Tosk
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.
Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.

Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A?
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Old January 22 2014, 05:18 AM   #257
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I thought they made a great deal of noise about how they had a higher moral standard, so I don't see why we shouldn't.
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Old January 22 2014, 05:31 AM   #258
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Tosk wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.
Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.

Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A?
Plus who were they going to offer it to the Klingons, yeah thats going to be a good thing for the galaxy.

Other than that they have mysterious Romulans, imperialist douchebag Vulcans, imperialistic Andorians trying to kill the afore mentioned douchebag Vulcans, oh and humans that nearly blew themselves to kingdom come for what was probably a really stupid reason in hind sight.

Not exactly a shining beacon of civilization now is it.

Besides considering how much of a pain in the ass contacting people from the Briar Patch is, that's a lot of trouble to ask a species that just wants to be left alone to go to.
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Old January 22 2014, 05:34 AM   #259
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I thought they made a great deal of noise about how they had a higher moral standard, so I don't see why we shouldn't.
Considering one of their big values that were part of their higher moral standard was wanting to be left alone they seemed to be following that well enough.
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Old January 22 2014, 05:39 AM   #260
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The US wanted to be left alone during the World Wars. I wouldn't confuse Isolationism with Morality.
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Old January 22 2014, 05:47 AM   #261
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.
1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

they were removing the Baku, not killing them. Unless you mean that the Baku simply dying of OLD AGE once they're removed is equivalent to genocide.


But then you were so casual about the SON'A dying of old age, weren't you?


Why aren't the Baku guilty of it for exiling the Son'a to die slowly?
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Old January 22 2014, 06:05 AM   #262
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The Baku are too pretty to be criminals.
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Old January 22 2014, 09:24 AM   #263
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Didn't the Baku say they won't allow machinery as it taints their achievements. How far is this non-machinery zone? Is it the whole planet?
Didn't they get rid of the Son'a because of their use of machinery. If they could have just banished them to out-of-their-sight then the Son'a could have easily lived 1000 miles away without problems. I think the Baku must have not wanted machinery on the entire planet.
Wait how did the Baku ban the Sona without machinery, or has this question been asked once or twice before?
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Old January 22 2014, 10:09 AM   #264
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Didn't the Baku say they won't allow machinery as it taints their achievements. How far is this non-machinery zone? Is it the whole planet?
Didn't they get rid of the Son'a because of their use of machinery. If they could have just banished them to out-of-their-sight then the Son'a could have easily lived 1000 miles away without problems. I think the Baku must have not wanted machinery on the entire planet.
Wait how did the Baku ban the Sona without machinery, or has this question been asked once or twice before?
Eyup. Which brings up the question of what keeps the S'ona from landing on the otherside of the planet ever few decades and soaking up some of the radiation for a few weeks, then zipping back out into the galaxy? There's no way the Baku would have known or been able to stop them if they did.
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Old January 22 2014, 11:03 AM   #265
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^Besides, the Baku are very willing to let OTHER PEOPLE use advanced technology (and risk their lives) to defend Baku interests. As long as they don't have to dirty their own hands. Yep. Those Baku sure are morally superior, aren't they?
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Old January 22 2014, 12:41 PM   #266
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

As I recall, the Baku were very educated on up-to-date technologies, as they even seemed to be informed of how Data's Positronic Brain functions and ... and so forth. I got the impression from the light-haired father that they just don't like using technology where it "takes away" from the work Men do that makes them feel worthwhile ... and truly satisfied with life ... and living.
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Old January 22 2014, 02:44 PM   #267
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

We all know how this turns out anyway...six months after the Baku planet's been saved and Our Heroes are done patting themselves on their backs, Section 31 swoops in with their own collector and vacuums the rings dry.
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Old January 22 2014, 03:55 PM   #268
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.
1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

they were removing the Baku, not killing them.
I'm responding to your they should have had the movie about a fuel source by pointing out the only fuel source the federation goes to any trouble to get in the 24th century is on a type planet that the Ba'ku would have to be a very different form of life to live on to the point that they can't live on M-class planets, since M-class planets don't have toxic (by human standards) atmosphere and temperatures that may or may not cause humans to burst into flames.

So the federation needs another one of those types of planets to move them too as a hypothetical Ba'ku that could survive on a Y-class planet where the only fuel the federation hasn't figured out how no run out of would probably be incapable of survivng on an M-class planet.

Of course this also doesn't acount for the fact that the federation doesn't have to relocate them if they were just trying to get fuel as they could just mine it on the other side of the planet. So again changing the film from vainity particles to a fuel source doesn't really work.

Basically I'm shooting holes in your the film would work better if the conflict was over a fuel source by pointing out the problems with that.

DonIago wrote: View Post
We all know how this turns out anyway...six months after the Baku planet's been saved and Our Heroes are done patting themselves on their backs, Section 31 swoops in with their own collector and vacuums the rings dry.
Well unless Picard is around and stops them a which point he probably gets a medal for stopping the rouge terrorist group Section 31 from yet another of their criminal enterprises.

Also probably killing any further attempts at relocation since nothing practically kills any good points for the relocation side then being seen as in leauge with treasonous (what with their spying on the elected government they have no regard for) terrorists.

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.
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Old January 22 2014, 04:16 PM   #269
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Honestly, if S31 did get involved I suspect they'd sooner blow up the planet and their own ships then a) allow even the possibility of the rings falling into hostile hands, b) allow any evidence of their involvement to be located. They're smarter than that.

I suspect that while the Federation doesn't know how the collector works, S31 is able and more than willing to take any and all necessary actions to acquire that information from the Son'a. Given the Son'a are already supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion (or were), it's doubtful S31 regards them as anything other than a hostile power in any case.
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Old January 22 2014, 05:26 PM   #270
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
They're smarter than that.
No their not.

Their first appearance was kidnapping Bashir under the delusion that putting him through some psychological labyrinth while going on about how they get to do what ever they want would make him inclined to join their little club.

Next they undertake a convoluted plan to screw over a federation supporter on Romulus to help the head of the Tal Shiar get a cushy position under the belief that a) that he won't screw them over later despite no reason given during the episode what so ever to believe that, b) that the Tal Shiar wouldn't find out and sack him if was a traitor to the Star Empire, or c) that they can trust a guy who is screwing over his own people when he has even less of a reason to trust them.

After that we get the virus to kill the Founders that when you think about it probably didn't contribute crap towards ending the war since by the time the federation and its allies got to Cardasssia conventionally THE WAR WAS PRETTY MUCH OVER. Oh and they also couldn't keep the federation form finding a cure for the virus any way.

Not to mention the fact that they used it before the war even started, if the Romulans hadn't joined the war the feds may have been conquered before it even killed the Founders, and the Founders could have just responded to dying out by have the Jem'Hadar go on rampage and burn half the quadrant down, but this apparently never occurred to Section 31 who based their discussion on what the Jem'Hadar did in one instance despite Sisko trying that idea and it sort of blew up in his face.

Then there is their appearance on Enterprise where they were surprised that the Klingons tried to stab them in the back and Archer pretty much had to do all the work while they sat on their asses and tried to take the credit.

Then there is Star Trek Into Darkness where true to form they thought pissing off Khan Noonien Singh of all people was a good idea.

Thats not counting the novels where we get such gems as...

1) Using an engineer with no spy training what so ever as a deep cover operative while giving him a cover identity of a man the Romulans knew was dead making it useless.

2) Their convoluted plans and attempts a making an Omega Particle literally blowing up in their faces by taking out a sector of space and pretty much getting them a spot on James T. "Slayer of gods" Kirk's personal shit list.

3) Almost handing the Romulans the key to galactic domination and screwing over a planet that was tow steps away from joining the federation for a list of Tal Shiar operatives that their afore mentioned director flat out said was worthless.

4) Almost creating the next Khan Noonien Singh.

5) From the sound of it not being able to assassinate one person.

Yeah, so going by their record chances are the harvested particles would probably kill whoever tried to use them and their attempts to either get them or commit genocide to hide them would probably blow up in their faces, possibly screw over the federation, and/or expose them in general to a nice stay in federation prison for the lot of them.
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