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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 12 2014, 03:29 PM   #196
bullethead
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
What is everyone's fascination with Section 31? Can't we do a "morally gray" story without them being involved? I find stories more interesting when people have an honest disagreement over what's right and wrong.
Going by the show, they're the only group of people in the Federation that's consistently pragmatic, utilitarian, and equipped with foresight. Lots of people think they're evil because they don't buy into the Roddenberry ideal universe/philosophy, but that makes them look reasonable to other people.
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Old January 13 2014, 04:51 AM   #197
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Section 31 is evil because they don't have any oversight or accountability. They literally do whatever they want to do, whenever they want, for whatever reason they want. They don't answer to anyone - not even the president. THAT's what makes them evil.
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Old January 13 2014, 05:05 AM   #198
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I don't see Section 31 as being evil. They're more ruthlessly pragmatic and morally ambiguous.
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Old January 13 2014, 09:43 AM   #199
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
that the Federation is more willing to make moral sacrifices under desperate circumstances.
I'm still not sold on the Federation's desperate circumstances in this movie.

We don't know when the movie takes place so it could be near the end of the Dominion War when the Federation was winning or even after the war so a fountain of youth wouldn't be some uber necessary thing.

And even if the war was still going on I fail to see how the particles will help since the only possible medical benefits listed where lengthen life spans and curing the blind both of which they already have and both of which aren't really a game changer in a war especially one against mass produced clones.

And even in universe it's not really impressive for a group that once developed the technology to practically be god on there own.

Khan444 wrote: View Post
I don't see Section 31 as being evil. They're more ruthlessly pragmatic and morally ambiguous.
And are a rogue criminal organization and basically terrorists.
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Old January 13 2014, 05:18 PM   #200
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

If you don't believe the Federation's operating under a sense of desperation at the time, then it would seem the Federation government is even more prone to making moral sacrifices. At least if the Dominion War's running hot and heavy at the time we can say, "Well, they were desperate." If that's not the case then that excuse, as you noted, flies out the window (at least to a degree, since doubtless post-war there are still people suffering from the war's effects).
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Old January 16 2014, 03:05 AM   #201
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

bullethead wrote: View Post
Going by the show, they're the only group of people in the Federation that's consistently pragmatic, utilitarian, and equipped with foresight.
Although to be fair when the Federation Council had the cure to the sickness that Section 31 imposed upon the Founder, the Council decided not to simply give it to them, but instead to employ the cure as a bargaining tool to end the war.

Good for them.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
They don't answer to anyone - not even the president.
I would imagine that the vast majority of the people in the Federation don't answer to the President, why would it be different for folks in S31?

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Old January 16 2014, 04:06 AM   #202
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Here's my biggest problem with Insurrection. You know that a filmmaker has failed if I'm actually rooting for the people who are supposed to be the villains, and it's not INTENTIONAL on the part of the film crew. I was on the "bad guys" side this entire movie, they at least weren't hypocritical self-righteous assholes who were so annoying that I wanted to see them all die horribly. No, that would be our "heroes" in this movie.
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Old January 16 2014, 04:39 AM   #203
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
They don't answer to anyone - not even the president.
I would imagine that the vast majority of the people in the Federation don't answer to the President, why would it be different for folks in S31?
Don't be fatuous. You know what I mean. Citizens don't work for the President, they *vote* for same.

If Section 31 claims to be a branch of the government, they must be accountable to it - and they aren't. Hell, Section 31 had a spy inside Jaresh-Inyo's Cabinet!

Section 31 can, quite literally, do whatever they want, whenever they want. That doesn't sound dangerous to you?
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Old January 16 2014, 05:17 AM   #204
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Section 31 can, quite literally, do whatever they want, whenever they want. That doesn't sound dangerous to you?
It depends entirely on what they are doing doesn't it. If what they are actually accomplishing is the protection and preservation of the federation, why would you consider this to be dangerous?

Is it because they were willing to kill in large numbers, starfleet was routinely killing vast numbers during the course of the war.

Is it because they didn't wait for the council to pull it's head out of it's ass and realize that the founders were a future threat to the federation.

Is it because what they did worked, and the war was indeed shorten through their efforts.

Certainly S31 was dangerous to those who would harm the federation.

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Old January 16 2014, 05:24 AM   #205
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Section 31 can, quite literally, do whatever they want, whenever they want. That doesn't sound dangerous to you?
It depends entirely on what they are doing doesn't it.
No, actually, it doesn't.
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Old January 16 2014, 06:11 AM   #206
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

In a democratic regime, an intelligence service is supposed to be both in a balanced situation between independence and accountability to avoid abuses from both sides. Claiming to protect the security interests of the Federation is not a sufficient guarantee.
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Old January 16 2014, 07:24 AM   #207
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Section 31 can, quite literally, do whatever they want, whenever they want. That doesn't sound dangerous to you?
It depends entirely on what they are doing doesn't it. If what they are actually accomplishing is the protection and preservation of the federation, why would you consider this to be dangerous?

Is it because they were willing to kill in large numbers, starfleet was routinely killing vast numbers during the course of the war.

Is it because they didn't wait for the council to pull it's head out of it's ass and realize that the founders were a future threat to the federation.

Is it because what they did worked, and the war was indeed shorten through their efforts.

Certainly S31 was dangerous to those who would harm the federation.


I think his point was that unaccountable power in a society is dangerous no matter who is wielding it and for what purpose.
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Old January 16 2014, 07:31 PM   #208
T'Girl
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Hell, Section 31 had a spy inside Jaresh-Inyo's Cabinet!
Batman had a camera and listening device in the Mayor of Gotham City's office.

If the person in the president's office found out that the founders were going to be taken seriously as a threat (years before they were), S31 might have simply turned their attentions elsewhere.

sonak wrote: View Post
I think his point was that unaccountable power in a society is dangerous no matter who is wielding it and for what purpose.
And I contend that it is what is done with that "power" that is the most important consideration.

Being unauthorized doesn't mean you'll alway get things wrong, anymore that being legally fully empowered means you know what you're doing.

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Old January 17 2014, 04:15 AM   #209
Hober Mallow
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Hell, Section 31 had a spy inside Jaresh-Inyo's Cabinet!
Batman had a camera and listening device in the Mayor of Gotham City's office.

If the person in the president's office found out that the founders were going to be taken seriously as a threat (years before they were), S31 might have simply turned their attentions elsewhere.

sonak wrote: View Post
I think his point was that unaccountable power in a society is dangerous no matter who is wielding it and for what purpose.
And I contend that it is what is done with that "power" that is the most important consideration.
I'm struggling to come up with any possible scenario in which this view would be compatible with a democratic society. I got nothin'.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:41 AM   #210
T'Girl
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

It's a case of members of a society stepping forward and taking action when faced with a governing body that was not acting quickly enough to protect the society itself. The federation council's early polly anna attitude towards the dominion almost resulted in the federation's destruction.

Simply saying that over there are the people in authority and the rest of us in the society should just sit on our hands is unreasonable. The federation council and starfleet were not the only people in the federation capable of making decision.

Like it or not, S31's independent actions certainly shorten the war and reduce federation casualties, and may have been the deciding factor in the war not concluding in a dominion victory.

Protecting democracy, but not practicing it.

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