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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 24 2013, 12:40 PM   #61
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

DonIago wrote: View Post
That would be a great slogan though- DS9: It's just better.

It just is
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Old December 24 2013, 04:32 PM   #62
DonIago
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

Heh. Reminds me of when I was frustrated with calculus in college and invented the "I Say So" theorem for situations where I knew what I was doing was right but couldn't remember exactly why it was right.
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Old December 24 2013, 10:53 PM   #63
JirinPanthosa
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

Tosk wrote: View Post
I don't recall anyone claiming objectivity on those specific matters. Are you sure you're not just being subjective yourself?
Of course I'm being subjective.

But there are a small percentage of DS9 fans who swear that darkness is the same as depth, cynicism is the same as profundity, and that Roddenberry's belief that mankind can improve itself is idiotic and naive. And they use those arguments to dismiss all other Treks, and that can be a little bit obnoxious.

It's not liking DS9 the best that bothers me, but some Niners' attitude about it.

I love both TNG and DS9.
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Old December 25 2013, 12:03 AM   #64
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I don't consider DS9 especially dark or cynical. It has moments of both to be sure, perhaps moreso than the other series (OTOH, ENT threatened to literally blow up the Earth, so...), but it could have been a lot moreso. Roddenberry's belief system may or may not have been naive (I fail to see how hoping humanity can change for the better is idiotic in any case), but whether or not a series hewed to that ideal is irrelevant; more pertinent is what it does with that belief. I like DS9 better than TNG overall, but TNG certainly had episodes that were superior to episodes of DS9, and vice-versa.

Let's not confuse "offers stories that are more to my liking overall" with "better".
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Old December 25 2013, 01:04 AM   #65
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

The thing is though, the whole "DS9=darker" is a little disingenuous. DS9 indeed went to some dark places, but it was also a much more confidently humorous Trek. (IMO) Maybe not hugely more than TOS, but certainly more than TNG.

For me, DS9 isn't darker or funnier or grittier (ugh) ...it's just that all those things (plus the serialization that TOS and TNG never got a chance to really do, and also the large cast of recurring characters) make for a Trek of more depth overall. I don't present any of those as some kind of proof that DS9 is the best Trek, it's just my reasons for liking it most.
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Old December 27 2013, 09:42 PM   #66
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

dub wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
The actual series is decent, but you Niners actually hurt it by deifying it compared to other Trek series.
Well, I love DS9 and I do not apologize for sounding off about its awesomeness in a DS9 forum! You love it or you don't. Same for any other show. To each his own. The show is not hurt by individual opinions. Like any other work, it speaks for itself.
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm a little curious as to how we could "hurt" the show in any case. It hasn't been on the air for quite some time now.
garaks the best wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Well I'm now in the middle of season 3, and while I like the show a lot more than I did originally, I still don't think it's more layered than other series.

What more detail and "layers" there are in the show were simply a offshoot benefit of the series being able to do things as an arc. But TNG and even Voyager had very similar arcs, and did keep continuity almost as well, even if they were more limited.

The actual series is decent, but you Niners actually hurt it by deifying it compared to other Trek series.
I think it the best trek series by a mile and don't see whats wrong with expressing that, also if some people are so petty to deliberately dislike something because it's fans love it the best well it's says more about them to be honest.
Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi wrote: View Post
^I also don't think it is simply a matter of expressing that DS9 is better, but that it was different from all other Trek series (at least until the last seasons of Enterprise).
DonIago wrote: View Post
That would be a great slogan though- DS9: It's just better.

Tosk wrote: View Post
I am unapologetic in my love for DS9. I am one episode from finishing yet another rewatch right now and if anything I love it more than last time.

That said, I think that DS9 is what it is because of what came before. DS9 benefits from TNG (and obviously TOS) building up a universe to play in.
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
I don't recall anyone claiming objectivity on those specific matters. Are you sure you're not just being subjective yourself?
Of course I'm being subjective.

But there are a small percentage of DS9 fans who swear that darkness is the same as depth, cynicism is the same as profundity, and that Roddenberry's belief that mankind can improve itself is idiotic and naive. And they use those arguments to dismiss all other Treks, and that can be a little bit obnoxious.

It's not liking DS9 the best that bothers me, but some Niners' attitude about it.

I love both TNG and DS9.
Tosk wrote: View Post
The thing is though, the whole "DS9=darker" is a little disingenuous. DS9 indeed went to some dark places, but it was also a much more confidently humorous Trek. (IMO) Maybe not hugely more than TOS, but certainly more than TNG.

For me, DS9 isn't darker or funnier or grittier (ugh) ...it's just that all those things (plus the serialization that TOS and TNG never got a chance to really do, and also the large cast of recurring characters) make for a Trek of more depth overall. I don't present any of those as some kind of proof that DS9 is the best Trek, it's just my reasons for liking it most.
Instead of answering every single one individually, I grouped most of the posts that have a similar theme.

I'm up to the first episode of Season 4 (Way of the Warrior?).

I can tell you can DS9 is definitely different than TNG, but IMO not necessarily better.

TNG was great at what it did, which was present us with an awesome universe where humanity had improved themselves, and could concentrate its efforts on the exploration of the universe. To me, the best TNG episodes were the ones that were primarily exploratory in nature, like "Where no one has gone before", or "We'll always have Paris". I could list more really. I'll say TNG really did have some stinker episodes, but each Season to me had at least 10 watchable episodes, and at least 2 spectacular ones.

When TNG hit a high note, holy shit did it hit a high note!


DS9 has a couple of things going better for it: It has a couple of great characters that have been carrying the show since the beginning:

Quark
Odo
Garak
Dukat

Now I can see why people love these characters. The actors were great to begin with, and they were given great material. However, fundamentally when most of your great characters are all, in one way or another, bad guys, that really leaves to be desired.

I can't really find anyone in DS9 that I look up to. Odo almost does it for me, but the whole "I'm siding against my people because I love Kira" angle is soooo damn grating!!

I think it's awesome how they developed the Ferengi, even if just to turn them into caricatures. I still genuinely laugh at most Ferengi antics, and I love the Grand Nagus Zek.

Unfortunately the other characters are weak, and really it's the fault of the actors. Kira never made me believe for a second that she's been in this huge struggle with Cardassians all her life. I roll my eyes every time there's some reference to it. Sisko just looks creepy most of the time, like a ticking time bomb. Again, a fault of the actor.

Jadzia? What's the point of her character? To fill the screen with smug? Her episodes so far, have been the worst ones.

I am enjoying the series, and I think it benefitted great from two things:

1. Being able to do more serialized story telling. Simply because it was allowed by TPTB. If TNG would have had this option, it would have had huge potential. Even so, TNG did try to keep continuity, even if it was just in passing moments.

2. The budget. Man, DS9 has the level of ship battles that TNG sorely lacked. We never got to see a decent Klingon/Federation skirmish in TNG, but we get to see some decent ones in DS9. Same with the Romulans. I never faulted TNG for it. It was simply the time it was made.

Those two things together give DS9 a huge unfair advantage over TNG.

However, I still prefer TNG because I prefer the exploration angle to Trek than I do the "kewl xploshins" and "funny characters". I'm still enjoying DS9, but I'd have to say, so far, for me it's on the level of TOS, a tie if you will, right below TNG.
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Old December 27 2013, 09:49 PM   #67
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

If you're only up to WotW than you still haven't seen most of what I think makes a number of people prefer DS9 to TNG.

Just sayin'.

But yes, if you're looking for an exploration-based show, then DS9 isn't going to be your cup of tea. That's (frequently, at least) not what the show is about.

You are, however, demeaning DS9 unfairly IMO by suggesting in your final paragraph that it's about "kewl xploshins" and "funny characters". While many of the best episodes may involve such things to some degree, that's hardly what the show's aiming for, and you're doing it a disservice, or misinterpreting it, if you think that's its angle.
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Old December 27 2013, 10:50 PM   #68
GalaxyX
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

If you're only up to WotW than you still haven't seen most of what I think makes a number of people prefer DS9 to TNG.
I have watched the whole series before, but this is the first time I actually watch it while giving it a chance. I was too close-minded about it before and watching it from a more mature perspective?

I'll say one of the reasons for my original close-mindedness was this near god like reverence Niners have for the series. Even most TOS guys don't do that shit. I suppose that wasn't a particularly good reason to hate the series, but like religion, you put down my favorite show to make yours look better? Hmm, what kind of response did they expect?
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Old December 27 2013, 10:51 PM   #69
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
1. Being able to do more serialized story telling. Simply because it was allowed by TPTB. If TNG would have had this option, it would have had huge potential. Even so, TNG did try to keep continuity, even if it was just in passing moments.
DS9 was more than serialized Star Trek. Obviously, it was the most serialized, involving storylines and character developments that spanned seasons. And the other series had elements of continuity that, with more dedication and planning, could have been spun into longer narratives: the Year of Hell, the Xindi, the making of the Earth-Vulcan-Andoria-Tellar alliance. However, there are major differences by which all those things were developed and unfolded. In Voyager and Enterprise, the arcs could have been described as extended episodes, with (nearly) definitive beginnings and endings. The arcs in DS9 evolved organically as the writers took a critical look at their own work and what they could accomplish within individual episodes. The war which would become DS9's hallmark would have been concluded in Season 4. The writers, however, felt that it was irresponsible to make hasty conclusions, and that wars were more complex things than what could be resolved in three or four episodes. The collaboration of the writers did a lot to hold it together. Consider that the Braga's Temporal Cold War fizzled out, in part, because he wasn't good at that kind of long term planning.

I'm fine with there being less exploration in DS9. This series spent more time exploring the internal workings of the Roddenberry's philosophy, and consequentially, did more than the other series to make it believable. Furthermore, it was about living with people and their problems, making it more relevant to today's world than the others. It didn't trivialize politics and social dynamics. And with importance put on psychology, beliefs, and relationships (particularly within families), it makes it seem that people are the center of the story, not superheroes.

ETA: before I look too much like the fanboy, I can appreciate your preference for TNG. It was once my favorite series too. However, the spin-offs needed their own identities, their own raisons d'etre, and DS9 did more to build on TNG's legacy than the others.
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Old December 27 2013, 11:18 PM   #70
GalaxyX
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I'm fine with there being less exploration in DS9. This series spent more time exploring the internal workings of the Roddenberry's philosophy, and consequentially, did more than the other series to make it believable. Furthermore, it was about living with people and their problems, making it more relevant to today's world than the others. It didn't trivialize politics and social dynamics. And with importance put on psychology, beliefs, and relationships (particularly within families), it makes it seem that people are the center of the story, not superheroes.

ETA: before I look too much like the fanboy, I can appreciate your preference for TNG. It was once my favorite series too. However, the spin-offs needed their own identities, their own raisons d'etre, and DS9 did more to build on TNG's legacy than the others.
I consider them (at least so far) apples and oranges. I don't want DS9 to have been about exploration. Frankly there aren't that many good exploration stories, and TNG burnt them all out (which is why Enterprise, and to an extent, Voyager fizzled out creatively).

DS9 is perfectly fine doing its own take on the Star Trek universe, and so far it's been faithful in it.

But I still do prefer TNG because its storytelling appeals more to what I like. No need to worship one series higher than the other, both did great things with their perspective premises.
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Old December 30 2013, 06:53 PM   #71
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

TNG is in honesty my most liked Trek series, because it's the Trek I grew up on. But DS9 was in some way I'd admit better to TNG, at least in terms of continuity.

I only also got into DS9 once Worf joined the cast, but then I've seen all seasons now and whilst season 1 was pretty shitty by and large, season 2 and 3 were improvements, once the Dominion was established as the enemy. And the Dominion IMO are the best ever Trek enemy, bar TNG Borg perhaps.
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Old December 30 2013, 06:59 PM   #72
desfem79
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
1. Being able to do more serialized story telling. Simply because it was allowed by TPTB. If TNG would have had this option, it would have had huge potential. Even so, TNG did try to keep continuity, even if it was just in passing moments.
DS9 was more than serialized Star Trek. Obviously, it was the most serialized, involving storylines and character developments that spanned seasons. And the other series had elements of continuity that, with more dedication and planning, could have been spun into longer narratives: the Year of Hell, the Xindi, the making of the Earth-Vulcan-Andoria-Tellar alliance. However, there are major differences by which all those things were developed and unfolded. In Voyager and Enterprise, the arcs could have been described as extended episodes, with (nearly) definitive beginnings and endings. The arcs in DS9 evolved organically as the writers took a critical look at their own work and what they could accomplish within individual episodes. The war which would become DS9's hallmark would have been concluded in Season 4. The writers, however, felt that it was irresponsible to make hasty conclusions, and that wars were more complex things than what could be resolved in three or four episodes. The collaboration of the writers did a lot to hold it together. Consider that the Braga's Temporal Cold War fizzled out, in part, because he wasn't good at that kind of long term planning.

I'm fine with there being less exploration in DS9. This series spent more time exploring the internal workings of the Roddenberry's philosophy, and consequentially, did more than the other series to make it believable. Furthermore, it was about living with people and their problems, making it more relevant to today's world than the others. It didn't trivialize politics and social dynamics. And with importance put on psychology, beliefs, and relationships (particularly within families), it makes it seem that people are the center of the story, not superheroes.

ETA: before I look too much like the fanboy, I can appreciate your preference for TNG. It was once my favorite series too. However, the spin-offs needed their own identities, their own raisons d'etre, and DS9 did more to build on TNG's legacy than the others.
I don't get why people hate the Roddenberry vision for being unrealistic. it's art, why must any artistic work be realistic? And today's problems? Well one reason why art exists is that it's a mental and emotional escape. I'd say ALL series had points some could relate to. Picard's assimilation and trauma. Janeway being isolated from home. Sisko losing his wife. Even Data's episodes in TNG had some real life aspect to them (betrayal by Tasha's sister, forgiveness in Brothers, prejudice in Redemption, love/dating in In Theory, etc.)

I respect people's opinions in saying DS9 was more realistic, but then I personally see little wrong in the Roddenberry vision, or how DS9 was better for discarding it. I think people miss the point of artistic works if they believe that.
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Old December 30 2013, 07:04 PM   #73
desfem79
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
I don't recall anyone claiming objectivity on those specific matters. Are you sure you're not just being subjective yourself?
Of course I'm being subjective.

But there are a small percentage of DS9 fans who swear that darkness is the same as depth, cynicism is the same as profundity, and that Roddenberry's belief that mankind can improve itself is idiotic and naive. And they use those arguments to dismiss all other Treks, and that can be a little bit obnoxious.

It's not liking DS9 the best that bothers me, but some Niners' attitude about it.

I love both TNG and DS9.
Yes, and art can never be wishful, speculative or whimsical.

So these guys won't see the Hobbit, or the next Star Wars film or the next Superman film. Yeah, an alien from a far away planet who is the last of his species and has superpowers from the Sun's rays and gravity. Best not watch that film, because it's not realistic...
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Old December 30 2013, 07:09 PM   #74
desfem79
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

4Cardassia wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Most of DS9 once the war kicks in is war war war, and personally I don't even think that well done
Actually, I have found that one of the primary sources of complaint directed toward Deep Space Nine's last two seasons is there being too many episodes that don't tie into the overall war arc. Episodes like "His Way," "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," and "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" are often derided for their seeming inconsequence and lack of relevancy to the overall plot. I, of course, am in in complete disagreement with these criticisms though .

So it can't be said that DS9's sole focus toward the end was the Dominion War. In fact, by that point, the show had built up a variety of other interweaving storylines such as those involving the Prophets, Ferengi, and countless individuals characters that only occasionally intersected with the War.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't think most people would say that the early seasons of DS9 are on par with the later seasons of TNG. Much like TNG, DS9 took a couple of seasons to find its footing.
Count me in as someone who vastly prefers DS9’s early seasons to the final years of TNG. At least in my view, Deep Space Nine had already surpassed the average quality of its illustrious predecessor half way through its second year—especially when compared with TNG’s seventh season, with which it ran concurrently.

The seventh season of The Next Generation embodied what that series had become in its later years: a lazy, pompous, unambitious shadow of its former self. Though TNG season 7 had a handful of great episodes such as “Parallels,” “Lower Decks,” “All Good Things…”, they were lost in a vast sea of mediocrity. (In stark contrast, Deep Space Nine’s seventh season was busy introducing new characters and elements, telling daring new stories, and shaking up the status quo.)

Meanwhile, as The Next Generation drifted further into complacency, Deep Space Nine was blooming into the vibrant, complex tapestry it would become for the remainder of its run. After kicking off with a risky series of episodes in the form of the Circle Trilogy, DS9 season two made a concerted effort to establish its own identity by further incorporating its colorful array of recurring characters and adding to the intricacies of its primary alien cultures and the changing scene of interstellar politics. Finally, the season culminated in the introduction of the Dominion, the Alpha Quadrant’s most multi-faceted threat.

In the end, it’s all a matter of personal preference. However, I do feel that TNG’s sixth and seventh seasons are afforded an excessive amount of leniency compared to their contemporary DS9 seasons.
I agree.

I think some season 6/7 eps HAD to be non-war. Think about it, was DS9 under constant attack? After Op. Return apparently not. So from an in universe standpoint, Sisko and co. had time to play baseball against an old Academy rival, or show how Odo and Kira start an intimate relationship.
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Old December 30 2013, 07:18 PM   #75
desfem79
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife, I don't feel insulted. Nor was I trying to insult. I own some of DS9 - not a lot - and it's not usual for it to be on, when I just need some background noise, whilst I'm painting, cooking, or cleaning. I would never discourage anyone from watching this series. But I stand by my statements. These technicalities you pointed out about the specifications of the Defiant, or the opression of the Klingons, are merely splitting hairs. I know that you're trying to point out how mining so heavily from TNG only added to the ... to the texture ... the flavour of the series. But I enjoyed DS9 most for its original elements. Even Ezri Dax, whom I never found to be all that attractive or interesting, but my unfamiliarity with her species and her specifically helped the Seventh Season, in Jadzia's absence ...
My point is not to "split hairs." It is to show that even when using familiar elements (Worf, Miles O'Brien, having a ship, the 24th century version of Klingons), the show was able to maintain its themes and develop its characters.

I make this distinction because I don't believe the UPN shows--Enterprise and Voyager--did a very good job doing anything that was original. The Borg Queen didn't have layers added to her. She was the same in Voyager as she was in First Contact. The same thing with the Maquis. The creative juices were not flowing through those shows.

I don't know about you but any show that is a spinoff will have familiar characters and situations. But a good spinoff is one that tells an original story or does something unique with the "universe." For instance, Frasier was a successful spinoff from Cheers. While Frasier remained unchanged and was the center of the show, the characters around him became funny and endearing as any character on Cheers. That allowed them to tell interesting stories and situations without having to re-tread on Cheers. It wasn't set in a bar in Boston, for instance. It was a family and workplace drama of a different sort (a radio station). And as they brought characters from Cheers onto the show, the characters had a reason for being there. It furthered the show beyond just seeing them and expecting them to be the same characters. It showed how Frasier had changed in some respects from his time on Cheers.

Deep Space Nine is a good spinoff because it adds to the texture of the known 24th century universe. Sure, the Cardassians, Bajorans, and Trills had been in TNG. But they changed drastically from TNG to DS9. Uniforms, make-up, how they fit together in the universe, all of that changed. For instance, "Dr. Beverly" saw a bumpy-faced man who said that he was merely "a host," that "Edan" was the slug. In DS9, it's a symbiotic relationship between two individuals--the host and the symbiot.

I think the show didn't "sell out" as it were when it got a ship. We never had a prolonged threat. We had enemies, but it was essentially a peaceful time. This show, DS9, explored a prolonged threat to the entire Alpha Quadrant. How different species would react, how we can destroy ourselves, and how we will deal with an existential threat. Voyager didn't have anything that focused or concise.

Stand by it if you must, but I feel that DS9 is, indeed, an original spinoff. They weren't telling TNG stories on that show. Sisko wasn't a clone of Picard. As a matter of fact, it's more in the first season that they encounter "alien of the week" stories that mirror TNG. It's not until the middle of the second season that the show really takes off with its own brand of storytelling.
The Klingons are one of the AQ's principal powers, and have been long before the Federation existed. It makes sense for them to be included in DS9, given that IMO. I guess it also made a good setting to include Worf to boost ratings, and for the Dominion to further undermine the AQ.
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