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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 12 2013, 09:30 PM   #16
dub
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think the fact we are still in here talking about the show is telling of both the Trek universe and DS9 as an individual series. I think Berman, Behr, and Piller put the universe that they created in TNG to the test.
That's an interesting way of putting it. I would say they took the existing universe and showed us a tucked away, darker piece of that universe we hadn't seen before. And instead of solving the problem in one episode and warping away, our characters lived there. I think it helped real tension to fester there, which really gave the show a texture and flavor that was unique to the series.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think of DS9 as a 177-hour story about Oppression.
Yes. They even found ways to get this theme into smaller aspects of the show as well, like Benny Russell, and even in light-hearted ways with women's rights on Fereginar.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think the weakest part of the series was the Maquis. I have wondered if they intended to split the Federation in half or if they were trying to find a way to fight another war with the Cardassians--the Cardassians are honestly arming the other side and the Federation has no choice but to try and stop them, that sort of thing. It seems to just sit there. They repeat themselves over and over again. I understand that the colonists want to go home, but it doesn't peel the layers like it does with the Dominion.
It was an interesting sidebar for me. I thought it really brought out some dark shades of Sisko's character, especially his rivalry with Eddington. But I agree that the Maquis as a presence with purpose was perhaps among the least developed.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
DS9 remains the best show at really picking apart a problem. The problems will be there next week, too.
Excellent post. Thanks for sharing!
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Old November 12 2013, 10:52 PM   #17
HaventGotALife
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

dub wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think the fact we are still in here talking about the show is telling of both the Trek universe and DS9 as an individual series. I think Berman, Behr, and Piller put the universe that they created in TNG to the test.
That's an interesting way of putting it. I would say they took the existing universe and showed us a tucked away, darker piece of that universe we hadn't seen before. And instead of solving the problem in one episode and warping away, our characters lived there. I think it helped real tension to fester there, which really gave the show a texture and flavor that was unique to the series.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think of DS9 as a 177-hour story about Oppression.
Yes. They even found ways to get this theme into smaller aspects of the show as well, like Benny Russell, and even in light-hearted ways with women's rights on Fereginar.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think the weakest part of the series was the Maquis. I have wondered if they intended to split the Federation in half or if they were trying to find a way to fight another war with the Cardassians--the Cardassians are honestly arming the other side and the Federation has no choice but to try and stop them, that sort of thing. It seems to just sit there. They repeat themselves over and over again. I understand that the colonists want to go home, but it doesn't peel the layers like it does with the Dominion.
It was an interesting sidebar for me. I thought it really brought out some dark shades of Sisko's character, especially his rivalry with Eddington. But I agree that the Maquis as a presence with purpose was perhaps among the least developed.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
DS9 remains the best show at really picking apart a problem. The problems will be there next week, too.
Excellent post. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I think it would've been interesting to show a dark side to the problem with the Maquis, not to Eddington and Sisko. Like the Federation has a policy to kill the Maquis on-site. Or the colonists have made an arms deal with the Romulans, something like that.
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Old November 12 2013, 11:19 PM   #18
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

Agree pretty much with what OP said. However, Kira, how can you just say you hated her character? Hate doesn't even begin to describe it. Wanted her to die in EVERY episode. Not sure why some liked her. Sure she grew as a character but still, awful introduction of a character either way, way to over the top in my opinion.

Oh well we all have different opinions I guess.
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Old November 16 2013, 05:42 AM   #19
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I like Kira quite a bit. She does get better as the show goes on. Yes, she's angry, but she has good reason to be. She grew up with her people as slaves, the most attractive women used sexually by their masters, her planet's resources stripped, etc. We also see Kira as compassionate and nurturing, with her as a surrogate for the O'Brien's, her close friendship with Ziyal, etc. She grows and even learns to care about some Cardassians, like the man who thought she was his daughter. I did think the romance with Odo was a misstep.
I also thought that a male Dax would have been interesting, especially if he'd been gay as Trek still never really explored that directly. But I do get that the show needed a stronger female presence too. That's their fault for only having two female main characters in a pretty large cast though. They'd have needed to make it clear that the new Dax had always been gay and this wasn't a result of the symbiote.
I can see where Jadzia and Ezri both didn't really have the gravitas to be convincing of having so many lives under their belts. I did like both of them a lot, and Ezri covered new ground with her identity crisis as she was initally uncomfortable being joined where Jadzia always embraced that.
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Old November 20 2013, 03:07 PM   #20
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I think the weakest part of the series was the Maquis. I have wondered if they intended to split the Federation in half or if they were trying to find a way to fight another war with the Cardassians--the Cardassians are honestly arming the other side and the Federation has no choice but to try and stop them, that sort of thing. It seems to just sit there. They repeat themselves over and over again. I understand that the colonists want to go home, but it doesn't peel the layers like it does with the Dominion.
You can kinda tell the Maquis isn't a DS9 element. It was primarily set up in late-TNG and early-DS9 are a precursor to VOY, but after that series kicks off DS9 is left to deal with it in the Alpha Quadrant. They tried to work with it, but it really did lacklustre.

I wish they'd had the colonists really take a stand and set themselves up as their own independent state. It could have had some interesting repercussions on the station, as well as when the Dominion arrive in the AQ--would they hold out on their own, ally with the Federation, ally with the Bajorans?
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Old November 20 2013, 04:54 PM   #21
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

If the colonists really wanted to set themselves up as their own state they would have needed to stop committing terrorism and using pirated resources. As it was I can't blame the Feds or the Cardassians for not giving them whatever respect they felt they were entitled to. In very broad strikes, it would be like recognizing Al Qaeda as a sovereign nation after the events of 9/11.

Honestly, the Maquis must have had the worst Public Relations ever.
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Old November 20 2013, 08:14 PM   #22
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I can see where DS9 already had the Bajorans as victims of the Cardassians, and there was some storytelling overlap between the Maquis and the Bajorans.
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Old November 20 2013, 08:27 PM   #23
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I wonder why there were never more Kira vs/helping Maquis stories. It seems like that would be a natural fit....
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Old November 20 2013, 08:33 PM   #24
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I agree, Kira and the Marquis would be a good fit. Maybe they didn't do it because TNG had done that already with Ro?
Could be a good plot for a flashback novel though.
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Old November 20 2013, 09:13 PM   #25
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

My guess is they wanted DS9 to be its own show and they didn't want to be forced into a storyline, so they made it about Eddington and they washed their hands of the Maquis so they could get back to the big Dominion plot. But I agree with all of those ideas above. I think that would have been cool. I like Bry's idea.
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Old November 21 2013, 02:01 AM   #26
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

borgboy wrote: View Post
I can see where DS9 already had the Bajorans as victims of the Cardassians, and there was some storytelling overlap between the Maquis and the Bajorans.
Which is actually an interesting element. We could've had dissidents of the Bajorans joining the Maquis to train them and put the Federation and Bajoran governments at odds. This would mirror how the French trained the American Colonists on how to fight the British. A wrinkle that shows the lack of unity among the Bajoran government and puts their membership in the Federation in peril. It would tie "the Circle" story line with the "Maquis" story line.

There was a lot of potential. That's what makes it so frustrating. Instead, the Maquis doesn't do anything by the time Eddington comes around that wasn't done in TNG's Journey's End. It's a starting point. "We want to go home!" Maybe they could've showed some former Maquis colonies and how the Maquis treated those that left their organization. They could've had a terrorist attack that looks like the Federation was involved in aiding the Maquis that puts the Cardassian peace in jeopardy. They could've had the Maquis change their mission, allying with the Federation, and they teach the Federation how to fight a terrorist battle.

I'm doing this off the top of my head. I've thought about it no more than 10 minutes. But it just seems to me that what they did wasn't interesting enough to devote so much time to it.
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Old November 29 2013, 12:28 AM   #27
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

My thoughts on Deep Space Nine are as follows:

The show started out kind of different and interesting. But then after a couple seasons, they started to lose confidence in DS9 and started doing everything it could to make it more like TNG. For example, bringing in Worf and thusly, the entire Klingon story ark from TNG. Sisko now had to be made a Captain and given his own little starship, so that the base is just a platform, more or less for the Defiant and its exploits. Bringing back all of these TNG elements and making DS9 fall more in line with traditional STAR TREK really hurt its claims to being a "unique" series.
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Old November 29 2013, 12:59 AM   #28
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
My thoughts on Deep Space Nine are as follows:

The show started out kind of different and interesting. But then after a couple seasons, they started to lose confidence in DS9 and started doing everything it could to make it more like TNG. For example, bringing in Worf and thusly, the entire Klingon story ark from TNG. Sisko now had to be made a Captain and given his own little starship, so that the base is just a platform, more or less for the Defiant and its exploits. Bringing back all of these TNG elements and making DS9 fall more in line with traditional STAR TREK really hurt its claims to being a "unique" series.
I think that is a very superficial analysis. I don't mean to insult you, I am just saying that because Worf is on the program doesn't mean that every Klingon storyline was meant as a ripoff of TNG. Just because they had a ship, doesn't mean that they lacked an original premise. I mean, all Star Trek series had a ship, except DS9 for the first two seasons.

DS9 had a warship. It was built to defeat the Borg and used to defeat the Dominion. It's showing the change in mentality among Starfleet, and allowing DS9 to have more weapons than it had. They had good and original ideas with that ship.

In a show about oppression, the Klingons give the Cardassians a reason for joining the Dominion. We knew they were the enemies and most shows wouldn't bother to do more than just have them join. If you look at the oppression story lines, it fits perfectly. Remember Robert Kennedy's words: "Violence breeds violence, oppression breeds retaliation." Dukat makes them STRONG again! They were a BEATEN people.

They put the Federation in the position of being conquered and become what the Bajorans were under the Cardassians--oppressed. It drives home the story lines about oppression.
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Old November 29 2013, 01:19 AM   #29
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

HaventGotALife, I don't feel insulted. Nor was I trying to insult. I own some of DS9 - not a lot - and it's not usual for it to be on, when I just need some background noise, whilst I'm painting, cooking, or cleaning. I would never discourage anyone from watching this series. But I stand by my statements. These technicalities you pointed out about the specifications of the Defiant, or the opression of the Klingons, are merely splitting hairs. I know that you're trying to point out how mining so heavily from TNG only added to the ... to the texture ... the flavour of the series. But I enjoyed DS9 most for its original elements. Even Ezri Dax, whom I never found to be all that attractive or interesting, but my unfamiliarity with her species and her specifically helped the Seventh Season, in Jadzia's absence ...
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Old November 29 2013, 02:14 AM   #30
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife, I don't feel insulted. Nor was I trying to insult. I own some of DS9 - not a lot - and it's not usual for it to be on, when I just need some background noise, whilst I'm painting, cooking, or cleaning. I would never discourage anyone from watching this series. But I stand by my statements. These technicalities you pointed out about the specifications of the Defiant, or the opression of the Klingons, are merely splitting hairs. I know that you're trying to point out how mining so heavily from TNG only added to the ... to the texture ... the flavour of the series. But I enjoyed DS9 most for its original elements. Even Ezri Dax, whom I never found to be all that attractive or interesting, but my unfamiliarity with her species and her specifically helped the Seventh Season, in Jadzia's absence ...
My point is not to "split hairs." It is to show that even when using familiar elements (Worf, Miles O'Brien, having a ship, the 24th century version of Klingons), the show was able to maintain its themes and develop its characters.

I make this distinction because I don't believe the UPN shows--Enterprise and Voyager--did a very good job doing anything that was original. The Borg Queen didn't have layers added to her. She was the same in Voyager as she was in First Contact. The same thing with the Maquis. The creative juices were not flowing through those shows.

I don't know about you but any show that is a spinoff will have familiar characters and situations. But a good spinoff is one that tells an original story or does something unique with the "universe." For instance, Frasier was a successful spinoff from Cheers. While Frasier remained unchanged and was the center of the show, the characters around him became funny and endearing as any character on Cheers. That allowed them to tell interesting stories and situations without having to re-tread on Cheers. It wasn't set in a bar in Boston, for instance. It was a family and workplace drama of a different sort (a radio station). And as they brought characters from Cheers onto the show, the characters had a reason for being there. It furthered the show beyond just seeing them and expecting them to be the same characters. It showed how Frasier had changed in some respects from his time on Cheers.

Deep Space Nine is a good spinoff because it adds to the texture of the known 24th century universe. Sure, the Cardassians, Bajorans, and Trills had been in TNG. But they changed drastically from TNG to DS9. Uniforms, make-up, how they fit together in the universe, all of that changed. For instance, "Dr. Beverly" saw a bumpy-faced man who said that he was merely "a host," that "Edan" was the slug. In DS9, it's a symbiotic relationship between two individuals--the host and the symbiot.

I think the show didn't "sell out" as it were when it got a ship. We never had a prolonged threat. We had enemies, but it was essentially a peaceful time. This show, DS9, explored a prolonged threat to the entire Alpha Quadrant. How different species would react, how we can destroy ourselves, and how we will deal with an existential threat. Voyager didn't have anything that focused or concise.

Stand by it if you must, but I feel that DS9 is, indeed, an original spinoff. They weren't telling TNG stories on that show. Sisko wasn't a clone of Picard. As a matter of fact, it's more in the first season that they encounter "alien of the week" stories that mirror TNG. It's not until the middle of the second season that the show really takes off with its own brand of storytelling.
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