RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,164
Posts: 5,402,989
Members: 24,753
Currently online: 472
Newest member: kev404

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 8 2013, 09:22 PM   #91
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post

Never mind, you'll use whatever you choose.

But it's not logical.
What's not logical is to treat a character as a monolithic entity that never changes. The Cage gives us a front-row seat into the evolution of early Star Trek and of Spock. That is what Spock was like thirteen-years prior to TOS and if Roddenberry didn't want us to see that version of the character he would have never allowed those elements to make it to the screen.

I'm also curious where and when Nimoy said we should ignore The Cage when examining the Spock character?
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 10:40 PM   #92
Cara007
Lieutenant
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Khan reveals himself to Kirk the first time they speak.
He reveals only that his name is "Khan." Which is like a North American revealing that his name is "Smith," it's an extremely common South Asian name. That's why he's able to claim that he was once "an engineer of sorts" and they don't recognize him as Khan Noonien Singh the dictator until afterwards.

(And yes, it's a bit bizarre that they actually give him access to their technical library in the interim - I'm not saying the whole Episode is perfect. Just that the aspect of the reveal is played correctly, and it's not "TOS gushing" to say otherwise.)
I do think that ep is perfect. From what Kirk knew, why not do what he can to help Khan adjust to a new time?

Break.... not perfect...

Marla's whole presense is just, well .... pretty demeaning to women as professionals. But that's pretty standard for the 60's. Uhura was just eye candy in that regard.

beamMe wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
You are intentionally muddying the waters in a failed attempt to justify nuSpocks clearly un-Spock-like actions.
Of course Quinto's Spock acts and reacts differently than Nimoy's Spock. One experienced the death of his homeplanet and his mother at a young age, the other one didn't.
True, no denying nuSpock has been run through the wringer.

My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.

nuSpock has flipped twice.

I'm not just posting this to hate. My opinion of this movie has changed after seeing it a few times.

The first time I saw it, when Harrison revealed himself as Khan I got so pissed the rest of the movie just didn't matter.

I have grown to accept Harri-Khan, even with a white brit playing the part.

But I just can't get past the rip-off reversal and how Spock is being written.

Had they ended it - maybe as I posted earlier, this movie could be ranked #1 on my ST movie ranking list.

Hari-Khan????

such a funny name you came up with. am laughing now.


I totally understand how nu spock is been written. they have to make Spock show emotions because they only have 2 hours to work with and in those 2 hours his character has to be as 3 dimensional as possible.

TOS Spock hardly showed emotions but that was fine he had 79 episodes to act like a robot.

Spock showing no emotions in films will make him one dimensional. I loved how Kirk made him lose control in the first film.

I loved when he tried to hold back tears after his mum and planet went toast. those where nice emotions he showed that was still in check with his character.

the Khan scream in the second film was ridiculous and it gets worse when you know the writers deliberately put it there as a homage to Shatner.
Cara007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 10:58 PM   #93
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BillJ wrote: View Post
And you still haven't given a good reason why we should ignore The Cage
Actually, he did: The Cage was made before "logic" was added to the Vulcan mythos, which is a pretty good reason for "logic" to not yet be part of the character. Which is something of course I'm sure you already know. Adducing it as a defense for Spockian illogic post-the development of that mythos is therefore not super-duper-convincing, nor is yelling and screaming about it when challenged.

Franklin wrote:
In all his travels, Kirk said he had never come across anyone more human.
To which Spock if alive of course would have said: "I see no need to be insulting, sir."

Seriously though, a poetic statement at the guy's funeral has little direct relevance to the plot point that Yanks is talking about.

Yanks wrote:
Marla's whole presense is just, well .... pretty demeaning to women as professionals. But that's pretty standard for the 60's.
Yes, unfortunately it was. For that matter one of the more unfortunate tendencies of TOS, aside from its sexism, was also its tendency to categorize things like diplomacy or the human sciences as "women's work" to be inhabited by eye candy.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 11:09 PM   #94
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post

Actually, he did: The Cage was made before "logic" was added to the Vulcan mythos, which is a pretty good reason for "logic" to not yet be part of the character. Which is something of course I'm sure you already know. Adducing it as a defense for Spockian illogic post-the development of that mythos is therefore not super-duper-convincing, nor is yelling and screaming about it when challenged.
If Roddenberry hadn't wanted it included he would've re-cut The Cage elements of The Menagerie to reflect the new status quo. However, even after the introduction of logic, Spock was still quite an emotional being (See: Where No Man..., The Corbomite Maneuver, Amok Time, etc...).

But I still don't see how we can rule out that a human-Vulcan hybrid's emotional control would evolve over the course of a lifetime even if you subtract The Cage from the equation? There is nothing in the Abramsverse version of Spock that conflicts with the TOS version of the character. If you subtract The Cage then that period in Spock's life is an open book and open to any interpretation, including the Abrams version.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 11:22 PM   #95
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
Actually, he did: The Cage was made before "logic" was added to the Vulcan mythos,
The Cage was never shown as part of TOS. The filmed footage was used for The Menagerie, after logic entered the Spock-character.
You may dismiss The Cage but you can't dismiss The Menagerie.
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 11:27 PM   #96
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

beamMe wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Actually, he did: The Cage was made before "logic" was added to the Vulcan mythos,
The Cage was never shown as part of TOS. The filmed footage was used for The Menagerie, after logic entered the Spock-character.
You may dismiss The Cage but you can't dismiss The Menagerie.
Thank you!
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 11:35 PM   #97
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

beamMe wrote: View Post
The Cage was never shown as part of TOS. The filmed footage was used for The Menagerie, after logic entered the Spock-character.
But of course the footage of The Cage itself used for that purpose still predates the "logic" innovation. They took a crack at making it all fit with Vulcan logic, but those parts that don't really fit have a quite inescapably valid chronological reason for not doing so.

BillJ I think is reaching in attempts to portray TOS Spock as "quite an emotional being;" it's hard to count the occasional throwaway reference to something resembling an emotion as counting as any kind of real breach in Vulcan reserve, and the rare occasions when something more dramatic happens have specific explanations (the mind-altering spores in "This Side of Paradise" rendering him vulnerable to racist taunts, "Amok Time" and the effects of the Pon farr and so on). At all or most other times Nimoy sold the power and pervasiveness of Vulcan reserve, even in a half-Vulcan whose emotions were closer to the surface, very convincingly.

The destruction of Vulcan in ST09 functions similarly as a convincing reason for Spock's emotional vulnerability in that film. The question is, is it still saleable as dramatically "earning" Spock's pursuit-in-a-fury of Khan at the end of STiD? There's no absolute answer to that question, but with a character like Spock the danger of overusing the "breach in Vulcan reserve" trope is quite real in terms of undermining his distinctiveness. I personally was not nearly as offended by the KHAAAAN! yell as some, but I do think there's a real problem in terms of having "earned" the scene (beyond just the indulgence of a superficially clever parallel).
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 11:45 PM   #98
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
There's no absolute answer to that question, but with a character like Spock the danger of overusing the "breach in Vulcan reserve" trope is quite real in terms of undermining his distinctiveness.
Now I agree that this is a real concern. We need to begin to see these characters grow, at least in the broad strokes, into the characters we know in TOS.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 12:19 AM   #99
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
In life, how long does someone have to know a person, or how close do they have to be, before someone can be greatly affected by the person's death?
No, the actual question is: what do you have to do as a storyteller to earn the right to break the supposedly pervasive Vulcan commitment to logic instead of emotion? That it "seems really cold" to expect it to withstand death is sort of the point. It's "logic" -- really emotional detachment -- that's meant to be what makes Vulcans or even half-Vulcans "alien" and a character like Spock distinctive, that's precisely what made it such a good storytelling innovation in the first place. And it's fair to wonder if NuTrek seems to hold it rather cheaply, destruction of Vulcan or no.
Most stories that center around Spock and other lead Vulcans ( and guest Vulcans) are about challenges to the Vulcan ideas of logic and emotional control. So the the answer to the question is, be hired to write for Star Trek.

Spock is constantly breaking the Vulcan Two Commandments.

He smiles in the Cage.

He gets all weepy in Naked Time.

He goes for the impulsive gut move in Galileo Seven

He lies, forges documents and deceives in The Menagerie to help hos old commander.

He get's all happy when finds out Kirk is alive in Amok Time.

He gets all lovey and aggressive in All Our Yesterdays

He lies and deceives in The Enterprise Incident.

The only time Spock is played as the logical emotionless Vulcan is when he's in a secondary or advisory role.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 12:25 AM   #100
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post

Most stories that center around Spock and other lead Vulcans ( and guest Vulcans) are about challenges to the Vulcan ideas of logic and emotional control.
The best Spock stories are always the ones that are about how he responds to emotional pressures. And many times he comes out looking like he can't really handle them.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 01:21 AM   #101
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock is constantly breaking the Vulcan Two Commandments.

He smiles in the Cage.
We've dealt with The Cage and The Menagerie at length above.

He gets all weepy in Naked Time.
Under the influence of a foreign agent, the usual explanation for dramatic breaches in Vulcan reserve. Cf. also "Amok Time" and "This Side of Paradise" also as we already covered upthread. Likewise "All Our Yesterdays" where his journey into the past put him in touch with more primal Vulcan emotion (an explanation that admittedly never quite made sense to me, but it was explicitly not "Spock as normal")

He goes for the impulsive gut move in Galileo Seven
He deduces that it's logical to resort to a desperate act given the minuscule chance of rescue. For all the needling he takes over this in the "let's all have a good laugh" ending, I've always found that explanation perfectly believable.

He lies and deceives in The Enterprise Incident.
I've always had the sense that the rather illogical notion of Vulcans never lying was an innovation of the films. That may be wrong, but if it is mentioned in TOS I would class it with throwaway, pretty clearly dry-humour or ironic statements like "Vulcans do not speculate" and "Vulcans never bluff." There are countless instances of Vulcans doing both (and of lying, for that matter), but they don't count as breaches in the emotional reserve which is the real distinguishing characteristic of Vulcanness.

I can count four unequivocal breaches of Vulcan reserve in 79 episodes of TOS (not counting The Cage which predates the idea and The Menagerie which imported that simple inconsistency). Yet Spock was central to more stories than that...
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 01:22 AM   #102
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
Which means the tears, yelling "Khan" and taking off on a rampage with the full intent of killing Khan is totally out of character for nuSpock.
Saavik cried at Spock's funeral.

And perhaps nuSpock was sensing the approach of Khan (the very next scene) when he yelled "Khaaaaan!", even though he hadn't yet mindmelded with him. Similarly, elder Spock had, in his younger years, sensed the deaths of an all-Vulcan crew in TOS, and sensed the approach of V'ger.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Therin of Andor; November 9 2013 at 02:38 AM. Reason: typo
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 01:36 AM   #103
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock is constantly breaking the Vulcan Two Commandments.

He smiles in the Cage.
We've dealt with The Cage and The Menagerie at length above.

He gets all weepy in Naked Time.
Under the influence of a foreign agent, the usual explanation for dramatic breaches in Vulcan reserve. Cf. also "Amok Time" and "This Side of Paradise" also as we already covered upthread. Likewise "All Our Yesterdays" where his journey into the past put him in touch with more primal Vulcan emotion (an explanation that admittedly never quite made sense to me, but it was explicitly not "Spock as normal")

He goes for the impulsive gut move in Galileo Seven
He deduces that it's logical to resort to a desperate act given the minuscule chance of rescue. For all the needling he takes over this in the "let's all have a good laugh" ending, I've always found that explanation perfectly believable.

He lies and deceives in The Enterprise Incident.
I've always had the sense that the rather illogical notion of Vulcans never lying was an innovation of the films. That may be wrong, but if it is mentioned in TOS I would class it with throwaway, pretty clearly dry-humour or ironic statements like "Vulcans do not speculate" and "Vulcans never bluff." There are countless instances of Vulcans doing both (and of lying, for that matter), but they don't count as breaches in the emotional reserve which is the real distinguishing characteristic of Vulcanness.
My point is when writers want Spock to be front and center in a story they challenge the Vulcan Two Commandments. How this happens isn't relevant.

The line about Vulcans lying is from The Enterprise Incident.

COMMANDER: He is a Vulcan. Our forebears had the same roots and origins. Something you wouldn't understand, Captain. We can appreciate the Vulcans, our distant brothers. I have heard of Vulcan integrity and personal honour. There's a well-known saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans are incapable of lying?
SPOCK: It is no myth.
It's a key element in the Romulans buying into the ruse Kirk and Spock have set up.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 01:44 AM   #104
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post

I can count four unequivocal breaches of Vulcan reserve in 79 episodes of TOS (not counting The Cage which predates the idea and The Menagerie which imported that simple inconsistency). Yet Spock was central to more stories than that...
But once they incorporated The Cage into The Menagerie (and the series proper), they were validating that adventure and those actions became part of the character history. It doesn't really matter if "logic" wasn't part of the character during the creation. If they didn't want a smiling Spock to be seen they could've clipped the footage accordingly.

It isn't an inconsistency that they had Spock undertake actions prior to TOS that aren't consistent with what people think they know of the character.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 02:00 AM   #105
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The line about Vulcans lying is from The Enterprise Incident.

SPOCK: It is no myth.
It's a key element in the Romulans buying into the ruse Kirk and Spock have set up.
Right. In which case cf. earlier comment in re: "Vulcans never speculate" and "Vulcans never bluff."

Spock quite obviously prefers to deal with fact, but does mess with people whenever it is logical to do so. "It is no myth... [suckers]." That's interesting but it doesn't really qualify as a breach in emotional reserve, which I generally take to be far and away the bigger deal in terms of Vulcan makeup.

EDIT:

My point is when writers want Spock to be front and center in a story they challenge the Vulcan Two Commandments.
In one of two ways. First: they present a situation in which Spock's Vulcan-ness makes problems for him that he has to resolve without breaking with his logic (in much the same way that Data would later be presented with having to figure out how to deal with non-logical situations or subordinates or enemies without having emotion at his disposal), as in "Galileo Seven".

Second: by having some unusual circumstance strip him of the reserve. The second way was used a lot more sparingly than the first, I think wisely.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig

Last edited by BigJake; November 9 2013 at 02:11 AM.
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.