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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 8 2013, 06:43 PM   #76
Franklin
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
OK, now they are friends. From Spock's perspective for about what, 8 months?
You're not the first to post that you thought Spock's response to Kirk's death was over the top because they really weren't friends for that long.

I gotta think people really don't mean that to be as cold as it sounds. Maybe they mean it in the context of Kirk's reaction to Spock's death in TWOK given they had known each other for so long. They say that in comparison, why is Spock so weepy over losing a captain he barely knew?

Still. Really? In life, how long does someone have to know a person, or how close do they have to be, before someone can be greatly affected by the person's death?

Cold. Really cold, in my opinion.
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Old November 8 2013, 06:57 PM   #77
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
True, no denying nuSpock has been run through the wringer.

My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.

nuSpock has flipped twice.
Nimoy's Spock has already lived a very long and full life by the time he saw Vulcan die. The closest Nimoy's Spock came to the experience of Quinto's Spock was when the Intrepid was destroyed, and he was at least a decade older then.

Quinto's Spock is perfectly in line with everything we've always been told what Vulcans are like when they aren't in control of their emotional side.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:00 PM   #78
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.
Think back to the ice cave after the mind meld, Kirk was in tears, to which Spock apologized, saying "emotional transference is a part of the mind meld"

Later in Scotty's shuttle, his voice is breaking when telling Kirk "I just lost my planet, I assure you I am emotionally compromised."

This from the original Spock, at 160+ years of age and maturity.
nuSpock has flipped twice.
A younger "Cage"-era Spock (smiling, "THE WOMEN!" etc) pushed over the edge would end up having emotional control issues which the version of him who didn't experience those things at that point in life wouldn't have.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:04 PM   #79
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post

There are no surviving 1/2 Human 1/2 Vulcan characters in Enterprise. Spock smiling or smirking is not losing it, balling and running off on a killing spree.
There are also no half-human/half-vulcan's that we've seen lose their mother and their planet. So how do you know Spock's actions are out of sync with the character we saw in TOS?

I'll just let my argument stand on this note (since we can't count The Cage):

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Old November 8 2013, 07:20 PM   #80
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

A younger "Cage"-era Spock (smiling, "THE WOMEN!" etc) pushed over the edge would end up having emotional control issues which the version of him who didn't experience those things at that point in life wouldn't have.
If we think this through, obviously Spock thought he had emotional control issues or else he wouldn't have attempted Kolinahr to begin with.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:27 PM   #81
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

IMO, NuSpock being more emotive than prime is logical given his different life experiences. The. End.

Not enough for you, then consider how, when he went back 5000 years in time, he began regressing to a more primitive state - same as how Vulcan's of that time were behaving back on Vulcan. Now apply some NuMysticism to the mix and we get a more emotional Spock BECAUSE Vulcan was destroyed, some magical link between them was broken thus scarring and altering NuSpock.

For needing to explain it to you I must ask you turn in your membership card. That goes for everyone stuck on some bit of minutiae, apply some salve to the butthurt and think like a Trekker!
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Old November 8 2013, 07:44 PM   #82
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Franklin wrote: View Post
In life, how long does someone have to know a person, or how close do they have to be, before someone can be greatly affected by the person's death?
No, the actual question is: what do you have to do as a storyteller to earn the right to break the supposedly pervasive Vulcan commitment to logic instead of emotion? That it "seems really cold" to expect it to withstand death is sort of the point. It's "logic" -- really emotional detachment -- that's meant to be what makes Vulcans or even half-Vulcans "alien" and a character like Spock distinctive, that's precisely what made it such a good storytelling innovation in the first place. And it's fair to wonder if NuTrek seems to hold it rather cheaply, destruction of Vulcan or no.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:54 PM   #83
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Oh boy, pile on Yanks day...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So I take it you've never lost anyone close to you?
See above. On a personal note, sure I have.

It amazes me that you all beleive writing nuSpock with the control of a child is good writing or consistant with anything.

Franklin wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
OK, now they are friends. From Spock's perspective for about what, 8 months?
You're not the first to post that you thought Spock's response to Kirk's death was over the top because they really weren't friends for that long.

I gotta think people really don't mean that to be as cold as it sounds. Maybe they mean it in the context of Kirk's reaction to Spock's death in TWOK given they had known each other for so long. They say that in comparison, why is Spock so weepy over losing a captain he barely knew?

Still. Really? In life, how long does someone have to know a person, or how close do they have to be, before someone can be greatly affected by the person's death?

Cold. Really cold, in my opinion.
Not cold, realistic.

You can't tell me that a unromantic/not-family relationship a few months old is anything close to one developed, tested and grown over decades.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt - of course it should hurt, I'm saying it shouldn't send him into a rampage. Especially since he's half Vulcan.

beamMe wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
True, no denying nuSpock has been run through the wringer.

My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.

nuSpock has flipped twice.
Nimoy's Spock has already lived a very long and full life by the time he saw Vulcan die. The closest Nimoy's Spock came to the experience of Quinto's Spock was when the Intrepid was destroyed, and he was at least a decade older then.

Quinto's Spock is perfectly in line with everything we've always been told what Vulcans are like when they aren't in control of their emotional side.
That's not this issue, it's why nuSpock loses control, not how he acts if he loses it.

One could argue that Vulcans reaching the age of Spock(prime) start to lose their "control"... and he didn't lose it.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.
Think back to the ice cave after the mind meld, Kirk was in tears, to which Spock apologized, saying "emotional transference is a part of the mind meld"

Later in Scotty's shuttle, his voice is breaking when telling Kirk "I just lost my planet, I assure you I am emotionally compromised."

This from the original Spock, at 160+ years of age and maturity.

See above.

nuSpock has flipped twice.
A younger "Cage"-era Spock (smiling, "THE WOMEN!" etc) pushed over the edge would end up having emotional control issues which the version of him who didn't experience those things at that point in life wouldn't have.
Again, those that use Spock's character in The Cage to justify emotions is a weak stance for reasons I stated above. Hell, Nimoy will tell you that.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

There are no surviving 1/2 Human 1/2 Vulcan characters in Enterprise. Spock smiling or smirking is not losing it, balling and running off on a killing spree.
There are also no half-human/half-vulcan's that we've seen lose their mother and their planet. So how do you know Spock's actions are out of sync with the character we saw in TOS?

I'll just let my argument stand on this note (since we can't count The Cage):
What?!?! Because I've seen everything that contains Spock(prime)?

BillJ wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
A younger "Cage"-era Spock (smiling, "THE WOMEN!" etc) pushed over the edge would end up having emotional control issues which the version of him who didn't experience those things at that point in life wouldn't have.
If we think this through, obviously Spock thought he had emotional control issues or else he wouldn't have attempted Kolinahr to begin with.
You can imply whatever trips your trigger to justify something.

Again, one can't use The Cage

The Keeper wrote: View Post
IMO, NuSpock being more emotive than prime is logical given his different life experiences. The. End.

Not enough for you, then consider how, when he went back 5000 years in time, he began regressing to a more primitive state - same as how Vulcan's of that time were behaving back on Vulcan. Now apply some NuMysticism to the mix and we get a more emotional Spock BECAUSE Vulcan was destroyed, some magical link between them was broken thus scarring and altering NuSpock.

For needing to explain it to you I must ask you turn in your membership card. That goes for everyone stuck on some bit of minutiae, apply some salve to the butthurt and think like a Trekker!


I've turned it in more than once. Usually for screwing up some canon fact, never for not applying some Trip/T'Pol linkage to nuSpock and Vulcan.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:21 PM   #84
BillJ
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post

Again, one can't use The Cage
The photo I used this time is from the episode Amok Time. "Kolinahr" is from Star Trek: The Motion Picture. And you still haven't given a good reason why we should ignore The Cage, especially since the footage of that Spock is used in The Menagerie I/II.

Spock was an incredibly emotional being. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn't know "Star Trek".

The Galileo Seven wrote:
KIRK: There's really something I don't understand about all of this. Maybe you can explain it to me. Logically, of course. When you jettisoned the fuel and ignited it, you knew there was virtually no chance of it being seen, yet you did it anyhow. That would seem to me to be an act of desperation.
SPOCK: Quite correct, Captain.
KIRK: Now we all know, and I'm sure the doctor will agree with me, that desperation is a highly emotional state of mind. How does your well-known logic explain that?
SPOCK: Quite simply, Captain. I examined the problem from all angles, and it was plainly hopeless. Logic informed me that under the circumstances, the only possible action would have to be one of desperation. Logical decision, logically arrived at.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:25 PM   #85
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Vulcans are full of emotions. The ones they show most often are egotistical pride, xenophobia, and pomposity. They are also rude. This has been seen in both universes across all variations of "Star Trek".

Being half human isn't what made Spock emotional, but it gave him a different perspective on the Vulcan philosophy of complete dedication to logic and the place of emotions in a healthy psyche. His Vulcan brother Sybok rejected the dedication to logic outright, and fully embraced emotions. In a world of IDIC, why couldn't Spock tolerate that?

Vulcans are very contradictory people. In ST09 Vulcan is being torn apart, and where do we find Sarek and the elders? They've gone to a temple in a cave to apparently engage in a spiritual service of some kind. Is that logical? To go stand with head bowed before a statue at a time of great natural disaster? Yet that's exactly where Sarek and the elders went.

Oh and by the way, curiosity is an emotion. What we choose to interest us and what doesn't interest us. A strong sense of curiosity guided Spock almost as much as anything.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:29 PM   #86
Franklin
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Again, one can't use The Cage
The photo I used this time is from the episode Amok Time. "Kolinahr" is from Star Trek: The Motion Picture. And you still haven't given a good reason why we should ignore The Cage, especially since the footage of that Spock is used in The Menagerie I/II.

Spock was an incredibly emotional being. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn't know "Star Trek".


In all his travels, Kirk said he had never come across anyone more human.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:43 PM   #87
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
Hell, Nimoy will tell you that.
So you're speaking for Leonard Nimoy now? I'm impressed that he's decided to confide in you what he was thinking fifty-years ago when developing the character.


Again, one can't use The Cage
Who the hell are you exactly to tell me what episodes I can and cannot use in my examination of the character? Per Paramount and CBS, if it's live-action on screen material, it's canon.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:59 PM   #88
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
McCoy broke the fourth wall at the end of "Journey to Babel" - looking directly into the camera and saying, "Whaddya know, I finally got the last word!"
No he didn't. His eyeline is slightly to camera right.
Accordingly, I've read that this sort of thing is referred to as leaning on the fourth wall, not breaking it.
Having an actor's eyeline play just off to one side of the lens in a tight closeup is SOP for cinematography. The closer to actor's eyeline to the lens if commonly called "intimacy". There's nothing at all unusual about the shot of Bones here for film of almost any period, period.
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Old November 8 2013, 09:12 PM   #89
Yanks
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Again, one can't use The Cage
The photo I used this time is from the episode Amok Time. "Kolinahr" is from Star Trek: The Motion Picture. And you still haven't given a good reason why we should ignore The Cage, especially since the footage of that Spock is used in The Menagerie I/II.

Spock was an incredibly emotional being. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn't know "Star Trek".

The Galileo Seven wrote:
KIRK: There's really something I don't understand about all of this. Maybe you can explain it to me. Logically, of course. When you jettisoned the fuel and ignited it, you knew there was virtually no chance of it being seen, yet you did it anyhow. That would seem to me to be an act of desperation.
SPOCK: Quite correct, Captain.
KIRK: Now we all know, and I'm sure the doctor will agree with me, that desperation is a highly emotional state of mind. How does your well-known logic explain that?
SPOCK: Quite simply, Captain. I examined the problem from all angles, and it was plainly hopeless. Logic informed me that under the circumstances, the only possible action would have to be one of desperation. Logical decision, logically arrived at.
Too much quoting, to little time

Not sure how your quote substantiates your comment that Spock is an emotional being. (not that I disagree with that)
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Old November 8 2013, 09:13 PM   #90
Yanks
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Hell, Nimoy will tell you that.
So you're speaking for Leonard Nimoy now? I'm impressed that he's decided to confide in you what he was thinking fifty-years ago when developing the character.


Again, one can't use The Cage
Who the hell are you exactly to tell me what episodes I can and cannot use in my examination of the character? Per Paramount and CBS, if it's live-action on screen material, it's canon.
Never mind, you'll use whatever you choose.

But it's not logical.
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