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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 7 2013, 07:30 PM   #31
Cara007
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Kirk and Spock were re-actng a scene done before. it was not original and the fact that it was not original is kind of breaking the 4th wall for me.

The khan scream goes further to break the 4th wall because Shatner had done it first.

It is obvious that the writers did not write Spock screaming khan out of rage, they wrote it because Shatner did it in WOK and they felt they needed to put that in Into Darkness in one way or another.





When you have all this in your head. you remember that you are watching a movie and the characters are not real. whih is why to me I felt the 4th wall was broken.

Last edited by Cara007; November 7 2013 at 07:54 PM.
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Old November 7 2013, 08:24 PM   #32
Opus
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

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Old November 7 2013, 08:41 PM   #33
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Yanks wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

Out of character with the Spock from the '09 film? - No.

Out of character with the Spock from TOS? Perhaps. But then... "THE WOMEN!"
I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?
You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
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Old November 7 2013, 08:48 PM   #34
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

beamMe wrote: View Post
So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
His mind-meld with the dying Pike is also meant to put another piece in place. The argument the script makes for that moment is actually set out fairly clearly, whether or not one finds the pieces of it believable in themselves or the whole congenial.
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Old November 7 2013, 08:56 PM   #35
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

beamMe wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

Out of character with the Spock from the '09 film? - No.

Out of character with the Spock from TOS? Perhaps. But then... "THE WOMEN!"
I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?
You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
That and -- .

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes the value of friendship, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. Wouldn't that cause even the most stoic person to erupt?
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Old November 7 2013, 09:02 PM   #36
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Franklin wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post


I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?
You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?


All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Old November 7 2013, 09:04 PM   #37
R. Star
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

beamMe wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?


All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"
I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.
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Old November 7 2013, 09:12 PM   #38
Franklin
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

R. Star wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?


All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"
I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.
He's only in their shadows if you put him there. I guess he could've yelled, "SIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGHHH!"

Kirk's yell was embarrassingly silly, emotive, and out of place in TWOK. It was a take-me-out-of-the-movie laugh out loud moment the first time I saw it. Totally stupid. Spock's yell was heartfelt, sincere, and entirely appropriate in STID. I'd think the writers knew where they were going other than just wanting to throw it in.
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Old November 7 2013, 09:29 PM   #39
M'Sharak
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Cara007 wrote: View Post
Kirk and Spock were re-actng a scene done before. it was not original and the fact that it was not original is kind of breaking the 4th wall for me.
Nope. That's not what "breaking the fourth wall" means.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
The khan scream goes further to break the 4th wall because Shatner had done it first.
That's not it, either.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
It is obvious that the writers did not write Spock screaming khan out of rage, they wrote it because Shatner did it in WOK and they felt they needed to put that in Into Darkness in one way or another.



When you have all this in your head. you remember that you are watching a movie and the characters are not real. whih is why to me I felt the 4th wall was broken.
Still no.


You've latched onto a term used to describe a specific theatrical device and assigned it a different meaning. You may not have liked the scene—that is indeed within your prerogative as a viewer—but you shouldn't call it something it really isn't and expect that claim to be accepted without question.
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Old November 7 2013, 09:40 PM   #40
Therin of Andor
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

GameOn wrote: View Post
At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.
Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".
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Old November 7 2013, 09:54 PM   #41
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.
Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".
And a whole lot of Berman Trek.
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Old November 7 2013, 10:02 PM   #42
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

I just have to say, anyone who thinks Khan goes over the top in ID really, really needs to watch TWoK again.

Going over the top is what Khan's all about. At least, it is once you've pissed him off.
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Old November 7 2013, 10:04 PM   #43
Cara007
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Franklin wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post


I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?
You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
That and -- .

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes the value of friendship, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. Wouldn't that cause even the most stoic person to erupt?

Yes I am guessing you right. Is not about Spock's reaction that I frowned upon. I just wished he didn't scream Khan or they did noy re-act the death scene from WOK.


Kirk should have died differently.
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Old November 7 2013, 10:13 PM   #44
beamMe
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

R. Star wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?


All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"
I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.
Okay. Whatever.

Dramatically this scene/yell works better here than the original in TWOK where Khan reacts with almost orgasmic pleasure.
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Old November 7 2013, 10:15 PM   #45
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.
Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".
With Generations and Nemesis close ties for first.
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