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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old November 7 2013, 05:32 PM   #46
Professor Zoom
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

StCoop wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Anything that has lasted as long as Doctor Who, has had as many show runners and writers, won't fit together neatly like a puzzle.
We're not talking about stories from multiple showrunners decades apart though, are we? We're talking about a story from the same person only a year and a bit later. No one forced him to have Amy and Rory's last stories take place over the span of a decade but since he chose to do that he shouldn't then ignore it because "most people won't notice". If that was the only reason for ever doing anything the world would be in an even worse state than it already is.
I didn't say that most won't notice. I said most won't CARE. There's a difference.
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Old November 7 2013, 05:57 PM   #47
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I didn't say that most won't notice. I said most won't CARE. There's a difference.
Are you suggesting that the only reason for doing something is if a majority of people will care about it?
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Old November 7 2013, 06:26 PM   #48
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

StCoop wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I didn't say that most won't notice. I said most won't CARE. There's a difference.
Are you suggesting that the only reason for doing something is if a majority of people will care about it?
Telling stories always requires a bit of legerdemain and obfuscation. It has nothing to do with real life. It's a trick, an entertaining lie designed to entertain. The writer always has to focus on some elements and abandon others, and more often than not, some degree of verisimilitude or consistency is sacrificed so that the plot or the characters may shine. That's what's happening here and I honestly can't see what's so problematic about it.
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Old November 7 2013, 11:08 PM   #49
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
StCoop wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I didn't say that most won't notice. I said most won't CARE. There's a difference.
Are you suggesting that the only reason for doing something is if a majority of people will care about it?
Telling stories always requires a bit of legerdemain and obfuscation. It has nothing to do with real life. It's a trick, an entertaining lie designed to entertain. The writer always has to focus on some elements and abandon others, and more often than not, some degree of verisimilitude or consistency is sacrificed so that the plot or the characters may shine. That's what's happening here and I honestly can't see what's so problematic about it.
Plus it's Doctor Who a show that has never really given a shit about such matters - it's not an american superhero comic.
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Old November 7 2013, 11:23 PM   #50
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

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Plus it's Doctor Who a show that has never really given a shit about such matters - it's not an american superhero comic.
So consistancy in storytelling is something that you only find in " american superhero comics"? No other forms of fiction at all, then?

The lengths Moffat Fans go to to excuse his failings will never stop proving amusement.
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Old November 8 2013, 03:24 AM   #51
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

StCoop wrote: View Post
So consistency in storytelling is something that you only find in " american superhero comics"? No other forms of fiction at all, then?
... or you can address my point if you want.
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Old November 8 2013, 10:19 AM   #52
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
StCoop wrote: View Post
So consistency in storytelling is something that you only find in " american superhero comics"? No other forms of fiction at all, then?
... or you can address my point if you want.
Why would anyone address a point that was logical and well made?

The timing thing is a bit annoying, but I recall Sci putting a lot of work into laying down a timeline for New Who and as far as I recall he noted gaps in RTD’s timings as well. It is possible to be critical of both RTD and Moffat, and also possible to forgive them as well for some things. Frankly I don’t know how anyone can call RTD a consistent writer when he had the Earth invaded every other Friday, had the Earth towed out of its orbit (and back again) yet still had the general populace not seeming to notice.

I do wonder where people will turn their ire when Moffat leaves (and trust me they will turn their ire onto someone else)
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Old November 8 2013, 01:17 PM   #53
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
StCoop wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I didn't say that most won't notice. I said most won't CARE. There's a difference.
Are you suggesting that the only reason for doing something is if a majority of people will care about it?
Telling stories always requires a bit of legerdemain and obfuscation. It has nothing to do with real life. It's a trick, an entertaining lie designed to entertain. The writer always has to focus on some elements and abandon others, and more often than not, some degree of verisimilitude or consistency is sacrificed so that the plot or the characters may shine. That's what's happening here and I honestly can't see what's so problematic about it.
I don't think it's as simple as that. The dates that Moffat provided for things like Amy and Rory's wedding, and the Doctor being shot at Lake Silencio, weren't just throwaway lines that could easily be discarded/adjusted. They were crucial to the overarching plots of two whole seasons. They were definitive. For Moffat to constantly tout their huge significance, and then to seemingly forget what he himself had established, shows a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail.
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Old November 8 2013, 02:16 PM   #54
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

Noddy wrote: View Post
I don't think it's as simple as that. The dates that Moffat provided for things like Amy and Rory's wedding, and the Doctor being shot at Lake Silencio, weren't just throwaway lines that could easily be discarded/adjusted. They were crucial to the overarching plots of two whole seasons. They were definitive. For Moffat to constantly tout their huge significance, and then to seemingly forget what he himself had established, shows a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail.
They were instrumental to these stories, not crucial, in my opinion, because they were completely arbitrary. But now these stories have been told and these dates are no longer very important. Besides, I'd say that it may be "a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail", but that's an assessment of Moffat's character, not of the quality of his writing, and the former is something I find completely lacking in interest.
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Old November 8 2013, 02:57 PM   #55
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

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I do wonder where people will turn their ire when Moffat leaves (and trust me they will turn their ire onto someone else)
To his successor, obviously. In fact, this thread from 2008, a few months after it was announced Moffat would take over when RTD stepped down predicted fandom would turn on Moffat when he took over.
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Old November 8 2013, 03:10 PM   #56
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post
I do wonder where people will turn their ire when Moffat leaves (and trust me they will turn their ire onto someone else)
To his successor, obviously In fact, this thread from 2008, a few months after it was announced Moffat would take over when RTD stepped down predicted fandom would turn on Moffat when he took over.
It's...it's like you have a Tardis or something!

man, blast from the past or what!
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Old November 8 2013, 06:09 PM   #57
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

StCoop wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I didn't say that most won't notice. I said most won't CARE. There's a difference.
Are you suggesting that the only reason for doing something is if a majority of people will care about it?


I get it. You loathe Moffat. He can do no right in your eyes.

I'm suggesting that sometimes there are bigger, better concerns than making sure the dates line up, when only a small fraction of the viewing audience is paying attention from their parents basement while wearing their homemade Tom Baker scarves.
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Old November 8 2013, 09:41 PM   #58
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
I don't think it's as simple as that. The dates that Moffat provided for things like Amy and Rory's wedding, and the Doctor being shot at Lake Silencio, weren't just throwaway lines that could easily be discarded/adjusted. They were crucial to the overarching plots of two whole seasons. They were definitive. For Moffat to constantly tout their huge significance, and then to seemingly forget what he himself had established, shows a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail.
They were instrumental to these stories, not crucial, in my opinion, because they were completely arbitrary. But now these stories have been told and these dates are no longer very important. Besides, I'd say that it may be "a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail", but that's an assessment of Moffat's character, not of the quality of his writing, and the former is something I find completely lacking in interest.
So if DOTD comes round and Kate knows of Eleven (and maybe Amy and Rory too) in 2013, what do we do with those earlier stories? Where would they stand?
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Old November 9 2013, 02:04 AM   #59
Professor Zoom
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

Noddy wrote: View Post
The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
I don't think it's as simple as that. The dates that Moffat provided for things like Amy and Rory's wedding, and the Doctor being shot at Lake Silencio, weren't just throwaway lines that could easily be discarded/adjusted. They were crucial to the overarching plots of two whole seasons. They were definitive. For Moffat to constantly tout their huge significance, and then to seemingly forget what he himself had established, shows a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail.
They were instrumental to these stories, not crucial, in my opinion, because they were completely arbitrary. But now these stories have been told and these dates are no longer very important. Besides, I'd say that it may be "a worrying lack of attention to one's own detail", but that's an assessment of Moffat's character, not of the quality of his writing, and the former is something I find completely lacking in interest.
So if DOTD comes round and Kate knows of Eleven (and maybe Amy and Rory too) in 2013, what do we do with those earlier stories? Where would they stand?
What do you mean, what do we do, where do they stand? I probably won't do much. Power of Three was ok to be honest, and much of the last part of Amy and Rory wasn't all that great for me. So, I'm not likely to rewatch them anytime soon.

They don't really stand in my house. I have a netflix subscription.
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Old November 9 2013, 11:53 AM   #60
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Re: Kate Stewart in Day of the Doctor (SPOILERS!)

StCoop wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Plus it's Doctor Who a show that has never really given a shit about such matters - it's not an american superhero comic.
So consistancy in storytelling is something that you only find in " american superhero comics"? No other forms of fiction at all, then?

The lengths Moffat Fans go to to excuse his failings will never stop proving amusement.
Leaving aside, I'm indifferent to Moffat, Doctor Who has consistency and a degree of continuity - in the same ways the simpsons has consistency, we don't get episodes where the Doctor smokes crack or is suddenly the bad guy. The level of nit-picking you are talking about is something the show has never give a shit about and never should - for the audience this is intended for, the key thing is - is the episode they presented with on a saturday night an enjoyable one?

Everything else is secondary.
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