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Old November 5 2013, 12:37 AM   #61
1001001
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Sran wrote: View Post
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Sran, learn to use multiquote, six posts in a really short timeframe is bad form.
I know how to use the multiquote. The reason for my multiple replies was because I was responding to specific points one post at a time. Thank you.

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Use the multiquote function from now on.
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Old November 5 2013, 04:15 PM   #62
grendelsbayne
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

E-DUB wrote: View Post
During an episode the title of which escapes me, Picard references Pearl Harbor and "Station Salem One" as examples of "sneak attacks". I really think that if he were part of the same timeline as the events in ENT, he wouldn't have not mentioned the Xindi attack on Florida.
This argument is entirely circular. We all know exactly why Picard didn't mention the Xindi attack - because it hadn't been written yet, and it was therefore impossible for it to be included. Continuity can be a wonderful thing, but it's completely ludicrous to say that Star Trek can't show a story about a surprise attack on Earth simply because Picard once named a few examples of historical surprise attacks which didn't include any that specifically targeted Earth.

People don't automatically express every single piece of knowledge in their heads simply because some of it might be relevant, and there isn't even any logical reason to assume that any of the 24th century crews we've watched automatically must have had any in depth knowledge of all these 200 year old events in the first place.
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Old November 5 2013, 04:31 PM   #63
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

^^^
I agree, someone in the 26th-Century might mention a few conflicts the Federation has been involved in off-hand and skip the Dominion War. It's not because it happened in another timeline, but just because that person is only mentioning a few they're more personally familiar with than others.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:37 PM   #64
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Proud Frenchman that he was, Picard likely didn't give a sou about anything that happened in Florida.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:53 PM   #65
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

This argument is entirely circular. We all know exactly why Picard didn't mention the Xindi attack - because it hadn't been written yet, and it was therefore impossible for it to be included. Continuity can be a wonderful thing, but it's completely ludicrous to say that Star Trek can't show a story about a surprise attack on Earth simply because Picard once named a few examples of historical surprise attacks which didn't include any that specifically targeted Earth.

People don't automatically express every single piece of knowledge in their heads simply because some of it might be relevant, and there isn't even any logical reason to assume that any of the 24th century crews we've watched automatically must have had any in depth knowledge of all these 200 year old events in the first place.
+1
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Old November 6 2013, 04:07 AM   #66
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
We know from "Regeneration" that after FC, Cochrane talked to many people about his experiences with the people and cyborg aliens from the future. Members of the Enterprise-E crew, such as Riker and Barcley, had studied Cochrane all their lives and knew just about everything about the man. So why did no one at any point talk about how they must be the ones Cochrane spoke about? The very existence of such records would be proof that they'd succeed in preventing the Borg stopping Cochrane's flight, but everyone still acts as though nothing is certain because of the Borg's interference.
Both Poul Anderson and Robert Silverberg have written a considerable number of time travel stories. Both authors make the point that just because the time traveler knows he will eventually succeed, that doesn't excuse him from skipping everything between that point and the point when he does find out he succeeds. If he doesn't do the prescribed actions, the outcome could very well be a massive failure. So while the Enterprise crew are back in the past, nothing is certain - they haven't finished doing everything they were supposed to do.

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
I'm sure I read that Christopher does have it that the Borg going back in time did change history to some extent.
What you have to remember when it comes to writers like Christopher, it's his interpretation of things, yes he gets paid for what he does and it gets sanctioned along the line from someone, but it is his interpretation of things, no more, no less.

The writers of First Contact intended that those events happened then, they will happen again and they always happened.

Or as someone who knows a lot about time travel said, it's [more] like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff.
The Doctor Who version of technobabble that doesn't even try to sound "techno," let alone scientific.
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Old November 6 2013, 08:33 AM   #67
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I personally think ENT is AU because of all the TCW shenanigans.

Compare episode TNG season 4 x 15 First Contact with ENT 1 x 01 and 02 Broken bow. In the TNG episode Picard says that first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war. Yet if you watch Broken Bow, there is nothing resembling a preamble to war.
That's a very Human-centric point of view, though. Picard talks about "first contact," but he may not be speaking necessarily of Human first contact. The Federation, even at its founding, was a union of Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites. Maybe the disastrous first contact to which Picard referred was Vulcan/Klingon first contact, and it led to decades of war between Qo'noS and Vulcan.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Or as someone who knows a lot about time travel said, it's [more] like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff.
The Doctor Who version of technobabble that doesn't even try to sound "techno," let alone scientific.
Yes, it's true -- Doctor Who is not trying to sound impressive, just to have fun. To paraphrase Seth MacFarlane, this is a frivolous indulgence that Star Trek is quite above.
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Old November 6 2013, 09:54 AM   #68
Timewalker
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Sci wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I personally think ENT is AU because of all the TCW shenanigans.

Compare episode TNG season 4 x 15 First Contact with ENT 1 x 01 and 02 Broken bow. In the TNG episode Picard says that first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war. Yet if you watch Broken Bow, there is nothing resembling a preamble to war.
That's a very Human-centric point of view, though. Picard talks about "first contact," but he may not be speaking necessarily of Human first contact. The Federation, even at its founding, was a union of Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites. Maybe the disastrous first contact to which Picard referred was Vulcan/Klingon first contact, and it led to decades of war between Qo'noS and Vulcan.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Or as someone who knows a lot about time travel said, it's [more] like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff.
The Doctor Who version of technobabble that doesn't even try to sound "techno," let alone scientific.
Yes, it's true -- Doctor Who is not trying to sound impressive, just to have fun. To paraphrase Seth MacFarlane, this is a frivolous indulgence that Star Trek is quite above.
At least the Jon Pertwee era's technobabble sounded like technobabble instead of just babble.

"...reverse the polarity of the neutron flow..."
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Old November 6 2013, 11:29 AM   #69
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

TheSubCommander wrote:
I'm of the belief that Enterprise and the Temporal Cold War and Xindi Arc events created the Abrams timeline, even before Nero and Spock altered that timeline further, because of how advanced the Kelvin is compared to the original TOS Enterprise, and the events of Enterprise occurred without the Temporal Cold War and the Xindi Arc lead us to TOS\TNG\DS9\VOY.

After all, the only thing in Trek to survive the Abrams reboot was Enterprise.
Is the Kelvin advanced? It was big and had a lot of shuttles, but I don't see anything beyond what TOS Trek had or what could have been built 30+years prior. The NX-class looks far more modern than the TOS Constitution-class, but as we saw in "In a Mirror, Darkly" they're no match.
Maybe, maybe not. Is there anything that states that it is? Absolutely not, and youhave a good point with "In a Mirror, Darkly."

But as I see it, as federation technology advances, they tend to make their ships larger. So it is my belief that the Abramsverse Enterprise is far more advanced than the TOS Enterprise, since the Abrams version is about the same size as the Enterprise D. The ability for the Nu-Enterprise to Warp from Earth to Vulcan or Q'onos in mere minutes seems to imply they have perfected transwarp in the Abramsverse, or some other means of FTL that is faster than TOS, or TNG for that matter. I believe that the Kelvin is also more advanced than the TOS Enterprise, since it seems to be about twice as large, and based on the phaser\torpedo volleys it went out with, before being destroyed. Seemed to have more firepower than the 1701-Prime, especially prior to refit.

That is all admittedly anecdotal on my part, though.
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Old November 6 2013, 12:54 PM   #70
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Both Poul Anderson and Robert Silverberg have written a considerable number of time travel stories. Both authors make the point that just because the time traveler knows he will eventually succeed, that doesn't excuse him from skipping everything between that point and the point when he does find out he succeeds. If he doesn't do the prescribed actions, the outcome could very well be a massive failure. So while the Enterprise crew are back in the past, nothing is certain - they haven't finished doing everything they were supposed to do.
Kind of like Doctor Who "Pyramids of Mars", where Sarah Jane automatically assumes history is safe because she knows Sutekh wasn't released in 1910, and the Doctor shows her what will happen if they don't stay and stop Sutekh.
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Old November 6 2013, 02:14 PM   #71
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

^ Right on Noddy. Pyramid of Mars happens to be one of my favorite serials.

A similar event can be seen in the ENT episode "Twilight". Where the Xindi succeed at destroying Earth because Archer wasn't in command of Enterprise. Remember Daniels said the Xindi attack on Earth (Florida) was never supposed to happen. The subsequent destruction of Earth (and by extension the Federation would never be founded) would follow if Archer and his crew did not prevent the Xindi from destroying Earth with their weapon.
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Old November 6 2013, 06:53 PM   #72
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post

Maybe, maybe not. Is there anything that states that it is? Absolutely not, and youhave a good point with "In a Mirror, Darkly."

But as I see it, as federation technology advances, they tend to make their ships larger. So it is my belief that the Abramsverse Enterprise is far more advanced than the TOS Enterprise, since the Abrams version is about the same size as the Enterprise D. The ability for the Nu-Enterprise to Warp from Earth to Vulcan or Q'onos in mere minutes seems to imply they have perfected transwarp in the Abramsverse, or some other means of FTL that is faster than TOS, or TNG for that matter.
It's really only Voyager that slowed warp speed down to make crossing the galaxy a lifelong journey. Ignoring the warp speed charts in technical manuals and going by on-screen evidence, the new movies fit in very well with...

In TOS, TAS and the movies they visited the rim of the galaxy twice ("Where No Man..." and "By Any Other Name"), the centre of the galaxy twice ("Magicks of Megas-Tu" and STV: TFF), they covered 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "That Which Survives" (they would have made Voyager's entire journey in a month!). In Enterprise they got to Kronos in 4 days at warp 4. In First Contact the Enterprise-E got from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in a scene break. In various DS9 episodes, they got from a space station on the frontier to Earth, Romulus, Kronos, Ferenginar and Kronos in the space of a scene break, often just by Runabout, without any hint of the weeks of journey time that those trips should have taken.

I say the new movies are just basing their warp speeds on different examples to, say, Voyager and are ignoring the time/speed charts in the technical books (as all the above did)
I believe that the Kelvin is also more advanced than the TOS Enterprise, since it seems to be about twice as large, and based on the phaser\torpedo volleys it went out with, before being destroyed. Seemed to have more firepower than the 1701-Prime, especially prior to refit.

That is all admittedly anecdotal on my part, though.
Yet 25 years later, the new Enterprise fired the same kind of phasers and torpedoes we saw in TMP and TWoK. So whatever extra weapons the Kelvin had (and those red phaser beams looked very TOS-ish to me), it wasn't something carried over into the next generation of starships.

All my opinion, of course. I say the new fits with the old just fine, if only we modify our assumptions a little.

(...of course, that leaves Voyager in a bind, their warp 9.975 being significantly slower than TOS' warp 8.4 - yet they crossed over with TOS, TNG and DS9.... it's confusing.)
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Old November 6 2013, 08:01 PM   #73
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

GameOn wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn in a Mask wrote: View Post
Starfleet didn't go searching for the Borg for the same reason the US government today doesn't go searching for Bigfoot - it was just a rumor. The Hansens were like the 24th century version of the people who bring cameras into the woods in the hope that they can find a picture of the Abominable Snowman to sell to tabloids, at least in Starfleet's opinion.
This would be pretty inconstant with Starfleets mission to seek out new life and to defend the Federation.
I disagree.

Part of defending the Federation is deciding based on available evidence what threats they should be focusing on. When the Hansens went out, Starfleet was defending from more noticeable threats - the Tzenkethi, the Cardassians, and the like. On top of that, the Borg weren't exactly nipping at the Federation's heels yet; even assuming Starfleet was taking them seriously and believed the Borg were within warping distance, the last Starfleet had heard of the Borg were secondhand accounts from a handful of El Aurian refugees; should they be focusing on rumors, or on the border conflicts that were actively costing lives right then?
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Old November 6 2013, 09:52 PM   #74
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Part of defending the Federation is deciding based on available evidence what threats they should be focusing on. When the Hansens went out, Starfleet was defending from more noticeable threats - the Tzenkethi, the Cardassians, and the like. On top of that, the Borg weren't exactly nipping at the Federation's heels yet; even assuming Starfleet was taking them seriously and believed the Borg were within warping distance, the last Starfleet had heard of the Borg were secondhand accounts from a handful of El Aurian refugees; should they be focusing on rumors, or on the border conflicts that were actively costing lives right then?
I agree. Even an organization as vast as the Federation doesn't have infinite resources and equipment. Starfleet sent its ships and troops where they were most urgently needed. Allocating significant manpower to chase down rumors about a machine-based civilization from a far corner of the galaxy isn't good decision-making. Starfleet had no reason to believe the Borg were any more dangerous than the neighboring civilizations it was already dealing with.

Things changed after the brass read Picard and Riker's reports, but that situation involved a face-to-face encounter that cost the lives of eighteen men and women. Real casualties need to be treated with much more care and seriousness than rumor and innuendo.

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Old November 7 2013, 10:10 AM   #75
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Regarding Starfleets apparent lack of knowledge over the Borg: as long as we're speculating, I'd like to think pre-Federation Section 31 attempted to cover up the info from "Regeneration" becase they had some inkling that general knowledge of the Borg shouldn't be available to people until the Fed's "official" first contact with them in the 24th century. Not everything could be repressed over the centuries (El Aurian refugee stories, etc), but the arctic team's scans could certainly be, so the Borg would simply exist to most who even cared to know as something along the lines of Bigfoot...

As events in the 24th century unfolded, whomever had this classified data could have seen fit to start releasing it to certain individuals such as the Hansens to investigate through unofficial channels.

OR.... Starfleet records from the pre-Federation era may have been stored on Etch-A-Sketches, which would explain why the Ferengi incident, most knowledge of the Xindi and the Temporal Cold War itself seem to have been lost. Someone shook the records...

Last edited by Tommunist; November 7 2013 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Temporal Incursion
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