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Old November 2 2013, 09:10 PM   #16
Noddy
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

We know from "Regeneration" that after FC, Cochrane talked to many people about his experiences with the people and cyborg aliens from the future. Members of the Enterprise-E crew, such as Riker and Barcley, had studied Cochrane all their lives and knew just about everything about the man. So why did no one at any point talk about how they must be the ones Cochrane spoke about? The very existence of such records would be proof that they'd succeed in preventing the Borg stopping Cochrane's flight, but everyone still acts as though nothing is certain because of the Borg's interference.
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Old November 2 2013, 09:13 PM   #17
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?
Probably because no one thought (at the time) to look in the database to see if the Federation had encountered what Picard and his crew believed was a new alien race that far out from Federation space. Afterwards--once they had stopped running for their lives--they likely were able to review previous encounters.
I find it doubtful Starfleet would be as in the dark regarding the Borg as they were in "The Best of Both Worlds" if they'd been able to access Archer's mission logs and review the events of "Regeneration."
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Old November 2 2013, 09:26 PM   #18
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
We know from "Regeneration" that after FC, Cochrane talked to many people about his experiences with the people and cyborg aliens from the future. Members of the Enterprise-E crew, such as Riker and Barcley, had studied Cochrane all their lives and knew just about everything about the man. So why did no one at any point talk about how they must be the ones Cochrane spoke about? The very existence of such records would be proof that they'd succeed in preventing the Borg stopping Cochrane's flight, but everyone still acts as though nothing is certain because of the Borg's interference.
It's a big galaxy. We know of the Bynars and Science Officer 0718 as other cyborgs in the Trekverse and there are probably many more. Is a guy drunkenly talking about cyborgs from the future which he never personally saw, or an isolated incident where an early Earth ship was attacked by cyborgs 200 years ago going to be of any help or immediately come to mind when Picard is stranded across the galaxy in "Q Who"?

Remember again, Trek is PACKED with continuity errors. Massive ones (the TOS Enterprise zooming to the core and rim of the galaxy when such a journey would take Voyager a lifetime, etc). You can't say X is an alternate timeline because of detail Y, while giving episode/movie/series Z a pass when it has continuity issues just as big.
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Old November 2 2013, 09:38 PM   #19
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
How could the timeline shown in ENT lead into the TOS+ one, when ENT was specifically a continuation of the alternate history created in First Contact, when the Borg tried to stop Zefram Cochrane's warp flight? I've often wondered if Seven of Nine originally existed prior to the events of FC, as that movie did appear to make out that humanity became aware of the Borg much earlier, which may have been what led to the Hansens setting out to study them.
That film was not an alternate history. It was part of the existing one. A predestination paradox, if you were. It ALWAYS happened.

You can't prove it wasn't, anyway.
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Old November 2 2013, 09:47 PM   #20
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?
Probably because no one thought (at the time) to look in the database to see if the Federation had encountered what Picard and his crew believed was a new alien race that far out from Federation space. Afterwards--once they had stopped running for their lives--they likely were able to review previous encounters.
I find it doubtful Starfleet would be as in the dark regarding the Borg as they were in "The Best of Both Worlds" if they'd been able to access Archer's mission logs and review the events of "Regeneration."
I don't think Starfleet was in the dark about the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds," but they weren't expecting to lose 39 starships to a single cube ship either.
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Old November 2 2013, 10:51 PM   #21
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote:
You can explain that by saying it was on a "need to know" basis. Until Q shot the Enterprise into the Delta Quadrant, Picard had "no need to know".
That could work too. Even Starfleet has big things that are classified to all but those with the highest security clearance, IMO.
I can't believe the Hansens were given all available info on the Borg while Picard, a starfleet captain in charge of the Federation flagship, was left in the dark. It just doesn't add up.
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Old November 2 2013, 10:54 PM   #22
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Starfleet works in mysterious ways.
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Old November 2 2013, 11:07 PM   #23
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

More like Starfleet is run by imbeciles. They seriously didn't think it was worth warning the fleet about, even after the "Regeneration" incident and the loss of the Hansens?

And why didn't Starfleet seem to be aware that the Borg assimilated lifeforms as well as technology in "The Best of Both Worlds", when Captain Archer found that out over two hundred years ago?
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Old November 2 2013, 11:17 PM   #24
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Why would Starfleet connect mechanical remains found in the arctic that couldn't beat one NX class ship to the cube that massacred nearly 40 Starfleet ships? There's more than one cybernetic race around.

Starfleet didn't go searching for the Borg for the same reason the US government today doesn't go searching for Bigfoot - it was just a rumor. The Hansens were like the 24th century version of the people who bring cameras into the woods in the hope that they can find a picture of the Abominable Snowman to sell to tabloids, at least in Starfleet's opinion.
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Old November 2 2013, 11:23 PM   #25
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Trying to make stories make sense compared to stories written years or decades earlier, when those later stories change established history, is often a hopeless case.
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Old November 3 2013, 12:20 AM   #26
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
I'm sure I read that Christopher does have it that the Borg going back in time did change history to some extent.
What you have to remember when it comes to writers like Christopher, it's his interpretation of things, yes he gets paid for what he does and it gets sanctioned along the line from someone, but it is his interpretation of things, no more, no less.

The writers of First Contact intended that those events happened then, they will happen again and they always happened.

Or as someone who knows a lot about time travel said, it's [more] like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff.

Noddy wrote: View Post
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?
Classified.
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Old November 3 2013, 05:32 AM   #27
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
We know from "Regeneration" that after FC, Cochrane talked to many people about his experiences with the people and cyborg aliens from the future. Members of the Enterprise-E crew, such as Riker and Barcley, had studied Cochrane all their lives and knew just about everything about the man. So why did no one at any point talk about how they must be the ones Cochrane spoke about? The very existence of such records would be proof that they'd succeed in preventing the Borg stopping Cochrane's flight, but everyone still acts as though nothing is certain because of the Borg's interference.
It's a big galaxy. We know of the Bynars and Science Officer 0718 as other cyborgs in the Trekverse and there are probably many more. Is a guy drunkenly talking about cyborgs from the future which he never personally saw, or an isolated incident where an early Earth ship was attacked by cyborgs 200 years ago going to be of any help or immediately come to mind when Picard is stranded across the galaxy in "Q Who"?
But Noddy has a point. Riker and LaForge are, by the movie's own depiction, people who've studied Cochrane's life in obsessive detail. If Cochrane had an episode late in life when he ranted about cyborg aliens from the future come to kill him, they'd likely have at least heard of it even if it were just ``and we're embarrassed this great historical figure had a breakdown like that'', and when they travelled back in time to stop cyborgs from the future from killing Cochrane, yeah, it should've triggered some ``oh yeah'' memories and a moment of ``I guess he was wiser than we even guessed''.

And yeah, of course, it didn't happen (at least on-screen) because nobody making the show/movies had thought about that.
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Old November 3 2013, 05:57 AM   #28
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

GameOn wrote: View Post
... according to Daniels the Xindi attack never happened in the original timeline ...
In the prime timeline, there isn't a chasm down the middle of Florida.


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Old November 3 2013, 05:14 PM   #29
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
... according to Daniels the Xindi attack never happened in the original timeline ...
In the prime timeline, there isn't a chasm down the middle of Florida.


And how do we know this? We don't, of course.

I mean, Florida was never even mentioned, let alone seen, in all of trek prior to this time. So for all we know, Florida-TOS *did* have that chasm in it.
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Old November 3 2013, 05:23 PM   #30
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
... according to Daniels the Xindi attack never happened in the original timeline ...
In the prime timeline, there isn't a chasm down the middle of Florida.


And how do we know this? We don't, of course.

I mean, Florida was never even mentioned, let alone seen, in all of trek prior to this time. So for all we know, Florida-TOS *did* have that chasm in it.
If that were true, then Kirk and crew should have noticed a big jagged scar was missing when they orbited the equivalent of the North American continent on Miri's planet.
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