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Old November 4 2013, 07:46 PM   #31
Gotham Central
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
However, I don't agree with this. For example, although, in the post-TNG time frame, DS9 depicted the Romulans cooperating with the Federation for the limited objective of defeating the Dominion, there was never any indication anywhere within canon continuity that the Romulan Empire would be absorbed by the Federation. Ditto even for the Klingon Empire. On the contrary, the only indications were that they would remain separate, even if allied, entities.
Remember what Daniels tells Archer in the season 3 episode Azati Prime. When Daniels tells Archer about the Federation he includes the Klingons. The conversation takes place in the 26th century on board the Enterprise-J, during a battle with the Sphere Builders. So we can assume that some time between the 24th century (after TNG-DS9-VOY) and the 26th century, the Klingons become official members of the Federation. The Federation of the 26th century would also include the Xindi.
The scenes aboard the Enterprise-J took place in a possible future that's not a part of the continuity of the Prime Universe. Given all the convoluted timeline alterations and the change in status of the Temporal Cold War that occurred after Archer was aboard the J, I'm unconvinced that that version of the Federation will necessarily come to pass.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
As per Sloan (Inter arma enim silent leges), referring to the romulans and the federation, not even allied. Back to being cold warriors after the dominion is defeated, instead.
That was Sloan's prediction, yes:
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges wrote:
BASHIR: You want me to spy on an ally.
SLOAN: To evaluate an ally. And a temporary ally at that. I say that because when the war is over, the following will happen in short order. The Dominion will be forced back to the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassian Empire will be occupied, the Klingon Empire will spend the next ten years recovering from the war and won't pose a serious threat to anyone. That leaves two powers to vie for control of the quadrant, the Federation and the Romulans.
Of course Sloan was not aware that only a few short years later the entier Romulan Senate would be assasinated, the Romulan Empire torn in two...and eventually Romulus and Remus would be destroyed.
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Old November 4 2013, 08:20 PM   #32
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

Yes - the romulan senate was assassinated because the romulan military - the true power behind the throne - found it too tame due to the senate not endorsing the plan to exterminate every living thing on Earth as the opening salvo in a war against the federation. An event the military wanted so badly, they were willing to give the leadership of the empire to despised remans for it to happen.

The romulans are nasty pieces of work whose leadership hated the federation for centuries - meaning, the leadership has wide-spread support on this issue. With regards to them, the root beer argument is utterly unsupported in canon.


The klingons are similarly immune to the federation root beer. After 70 years of alliance with the federation, a single changeling was sufficient to convince the klingons to start a war with the cardassians, break their alliance with the federation and start a war with the federation. A changeling that didn't use any brain-washing technology, that is.
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Old November 4 2013, 09:51 PM   #33
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

Considering the very premise of the Star Trek series is that human nature has fundamentally changed, I don't think the realism argument can be made in this particular universe. Any other universe but not this one.

Also considering that in this universe, scarcity is solved, I don't see the same fate happening to them as happened to the Romans.

As for the Romulans, I think if the government completely collapsed and lost it's oppressive power over the people, then the economy collapsed, the fact that it would be the Federation to offer them material aid would go a long way toward winning them over.

The most problematic thing to me about the continuing survival of the Federation is the abundance of time travel in the 31st century. Hell, according to Enterprise, any six year old can change the timeline from his school desk. That's a pretty good recipe for disaster.

Given the in-universe logic of Star Trek, I tend to think the end of the Federation takes the form of becoming so extended that it fragments into different entities which gradually become their own distinct governments which ideologically drift apart. As in Dr Who, the end of the human race comes in the form of breeding.
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Old November 5 2013, 01:42 AM   #34
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

Forever.
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Old November 5 2013, 02:39 AM   #35
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

Until the LDS wears off.
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Old November 5 2013, 03:53 AM   #36
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

With as many corrupt admirals and captains Starfleet seems to have, i am surprised the Federation hasn't collapsed already!
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Old November 7 2013, 01:00 AM   #37
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
With as many corrupt admirals and captains Starfleet seems to have, i am surprised the Federation hasn't collapsed already!
This point can't be emphasized enough. It is demonstrable evidence that at the highest levels, the Federation is still vulnerable to the same profligacy that plagues the other empires, just to a lesser degree.

It's the heroes of the series, and not the vaunted ideals of the Federation, that ultimately save the day time after time. And these heroes are never shown to be in abundance (evidenced by the lack of second-hand accounts of similar events).

In extreme irony, I use Ezri Dax's own criticism of the Klingons and turn it back at the Federation. If the UFP, which values these ideals so much, can continue to put men like Cartwright, Leyton and Dougherty (and all the others) into positions of such power, what hope is there in the long run? What happens to it when there is no Picard or Sisko?

Not to mention the fact that the whole idea of the Federation council precludes any exclusion of decadence from the decisions it makes as a body. It is this that ultimately sank bodies like the Galactic Republic and the Systems Commonwealth. In other words, members may not always act in their own best interests, even as a collective of many different points of view, and it is dogmatically naive to assume that they can't do something in the future they've already demonstrated they are capable of doing.

Additionally, since the Federation is a democracy, why do we presume that the Human (or even Vulcan, Betazoid, Andorian, Bajoran etc.) perspective will be the dominant one into perpetuity?
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Old November 7 2013, 01:58 AM   #38
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

Well when you stop and think about it for a moment, a hundred plus planets with millions if not billions of people each, all clamoring for their own agenda isn't going to be efficient at all. Even with their supposed unlimited resources, the Maquis would probably be just the tip of the iceberg with their problems of a government faraway not seeing to the needs of people they don't know but are supposed to represent. The more races and governments you bring into the fold, the bigger the problem will get. I imagine the Federation will eventually either collapse under it's own weight, or de-centralize extremely. Heck the big crisis that breaks things is likely to be the rest of the Federation getting tired of humans dominating the organization.
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Old November 7 2013, 03:16 AM   #39
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

QCzar wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
With as many corrupt admirals and captains Starfleet seems to have, i am surprised the Federation hasn't collapsed already!
This point can't be emphasized enough. It is demonstrable evidence that at the highest levels, the Federation is still vulnerable to the same profligacy that plagues the other empires, just to a lesser degree.
On the other hand, for every one corrupt admiral or captain, there could be hundreds that aren't and are dedicated to maintaining the highest ideals and principles of the Federation. It's just the bad ones that get all the attention.
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Old November 7 2013, 03:29 AM   #40
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

QCzar wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
With as many corrupt admirals and captains Starfleet seems to have, i am surprised the Federation hasn't collapsed already!
This point can't be emphasized enough. It is demonstrable evidence that at the highest levels, the Federation is still vulnerable to the same profligacy that plagues the other empires, just to a lesser degree.

It's the heroes of the series, and not the vaunted ideals of the Federation, that ultimately save the day time after time. And these heroes are never shown to be in abundance (evidenced by the lack of second-hand accounts of similar events).

In extreme irony, I use Ezri Dax's own criticism of the Klingons and turn it back at the Federation. If the UFP, which values these ideals so much, can continue to put men like Cartwright, Leyton and Dougherty (and all the others) into positions of such power, what hope is there in the long run? What happens to it when there is no Picard or Sisko?

Not to mention the fact that the whole idea of the Federation council precludes any exclusion of decadence from the decisions it makes as a body. It is this that ultimately sank bodies like the Galactic Republic and the Systems Commonwealth. In other words, members may not always act in their own best interests, even as a collective of many different points of view, and it is dogmatically naive to assume that they can't do something in the future they've already demonstrated they are capable of doing.

Additionally, since the Federation is a democracy, why do we presume that the Human (or even Vulcan, Betazoid, Andorian, Bajoran etc.) perspective will be the dominant one into perpetuity?

Not to mention, do we know how many times has Starfleet been infiltrated? I can think of TNG's Conspiracy, and in DS9, you had Homefront-Paradise Lost (an example of not only Changling's infiltrating Starfleet, but corrupt Admirals!), and pretty much the entire Maquis uprising which had untold ex-starfleet officers (Eddington and Tom Riker come to mind) using their knowledge and access of Starfleet resources against it. In fact, the whole Maquis uprising really could be looked at being a federation Civil War, technically, since they pretty much seceded from the Federation.

Also, the fact that Earth is but one of many planets, it is natural to assume that Earth's will (or Vulcan's, Andorian's, other founding members', etc.) isn't absolute. Couldn't factions be formed within the federation where some planets who identify more with a certain point of view that isn't aligned with the mainstream Federation "official" line, gravitate towards one another? And couldn't these factions lead to divisions within the Federation, leading to unrest and possibly all out civil war? I think it could.
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Old November 7 2013, 08:35 AM   #41
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Also, the fact that Earth is but one of many planets, it is natural to assume that Earth's will (or Vulcan's, Andorian's, other founding members', etc.) isn't absolute. Couldn't factions be formed within the federation where some planets who identify more with a certain point of view that isn't aligned with the mainstream Federation "official" line, gravitate towards one another?
Maybe. Or maybe it would just lead to the formation of political parties and to competitive elections.

And couldn't these factions lead to divisions within the Federation, leading to unrest and possibly all out civil war? I think it could.
I think you're projecting modern political culture onto the Federation and its Members.

One of the important things to remember about the Federation is that it and its Members have internalized the idea in their mainstream political cultures that violence is the absolute last resort, not an acceptable means for resolving domestic political disputes. They are committed to democratic governance.

Further, it seems probable to me that if the Federation ever finds itself with a truly insurmountable cultural difference with one of its Members, that it is far more likely to simply allow that Member to peacefully secede if it holds a popular referendum that decides in secession's favor.
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Old November 7 2013, 09:25 AM   #42
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

I think anything made from living beings has a lifespan, like living beings. So the Federation will age and in time die.

However, the actual lifespan depends upon how its institutions evolve to meet the challenge of time and events. At least in theory one might imagine the Federation setting up institutions that outlive all the founding species. Difficult to imagine it would resemble what we call the Federation, however.
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Old November 7 2013, 01:20 PM   #43
C.E. Evans
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

I think it's conceivable--and maybe even likely, IMO--that the United Federation of Planets will evolve into something else in the far future, perhaps a Galactic Grand Federation (or something like that) that could be less Earth-centric and with a less Human-dominated Starfleet.
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Old November 7 2013, 08:24 PM   #44
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

The Republic- a huge conglomerate of peaceful planets with a democratically elected chancellor.

The Jedi-an exclusive, (100% Jedi) non violent group devoted to democracy and trusted with military authority..

After a period of desperation during "the Clone Wars" the chancellor tricks the senate into giving him emergency powers, eliminates the Jedi, and declares himself Emperor-with group member support. The Republic becomes an empire-legally.


The Federation-a large organization of peaceful planets with democratically elected President.

Starfleet- an organization (appearing about 80% humans) devoted to democracy and freedom.

Starfleet-assassinated a foreign leader calling for peace and attempted to assassination their own president in a plot to keep Klingon and the Federation apart.

-During the Dominion War, during a period of desperation, a genocidal virus was released into the Founders by someone within the Federation with technical means and support.

-An Admiral attempted to take over earth after tricking the president and Starfleet into giving him emergency powers. Dominion War related.


Can the same thing happen to the Federation?
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Old November 7 2013, 09:00 PM   #45
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Re: How long should the Federation last?

^There were plenty of anti-democratic elements in ST's Galactic Republic. The chancellor was selected by the Senate, a body which we can't be certain was democratically elected. The Jedi are not themselves a popular military force, composed of only those people whom they select and who are segregated from the general population at a young age. There is some indication that feudal power still remains influential in political affairs. There is impatience with the democratic process, even from one of the series' heroes (Padmae), and a desire to centralize power more with the executive. And no one seems willing to defend its integrity: instead of raising or drafting a popular army, the political will turns to manufactured soldiers, who may have been robbed of their political self-determination from their conception.

The UFP has to go a long way to sink the the Galactic Republic's level.
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