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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 8 2013, 07:49 AM   #76
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Ah, yes, very good. In other words, what you're proposing is that perhaps part of the very function of the Atavachron is to preserve the integrity of the timeline. Very, very good. That explains quite a lot, including Spock's emotional regression.
Yeah...but for one thing: Spock was never "prepared"!
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Old November 8 2013, 07:55 AM   #77
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Ah, yes, very good. In other words, what you're proposing is that perhaps part of the very function of the Atavachron is to preserve the integrity of the timeline. Very, very good. That explains quite a lot, including Spock's emotional regression.
Yeah...but for one thing: Spock was never "prepared"!
Well, according to this idea, Spock was never prepared for the changes that the Atavachron would necessarily force him to undergo regardless. If the function of the Atavachron is to protect the timeline, at least to some degree, then it's easy to imagine that it could be designed to impose certain physical modifications on what it sent through automatically. Perhaps preparing simply made sure that those physical modifications were survived.
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Old November 8 2013, 01:12 PM   #78
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

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Here or there, you're presenting your opinion of how time travel should work as if it were some inviolable set of rules that all writers of time travel stories must follow...and guess what, they don't.
Yes, it is opinion, but I also qualified that opinion. No one has really time traveled, so we must fall back on logic. I also pointed out that writers of paradox time travel stories try to have things both ways. Readers of other stories expect logic and continuity, but bad time travel stories are exempt.

In the movie JURASSIC PARK there is a scene in the T. Rex paddock where the dinosaur effortlessly stomps through the unpowered electric fence. Only minutes later that same ground-level paddock is suddenly a 40 meter drop that the SUV is pushed over. By the "rules" of time travel, this is perfectly acceptable because the writer wanted it that way.

In James Cameron's AVATAR there is s scene early in the movie were the Na'vi l'ances harmlessly plink off the armor of the Terran helicopters. Later in the movie the same spears righteously smash clean through. This also is not a discontinuity because the writer wanted it that way.

And in BACK TO THE FUTURE II Doc even explains the alternate history concept, then later tells Marty not to worry about Jennifer, who has been abandoned on a porch in the alternate reality. Doc glosses over the inconvenience to the movie makers of having to return for Jennifer (and Einstein) by saying, "Assuming we succeed in our mission, this alternate 1985 will be changed back into the 'real' 1985, instantaneously transforming around Jennifer and Einie."

Invoking time travel is a get-out-of-jail-free card to do anything at all.
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Old November 8 2013, 01:20 PM   #79
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

If your point is that time travel stories should have some internal logic to them, then I agree. But the exact details of how time travel works can and will vary from story to story, and aren't beholden to your own rules of time travel logic.
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Old November 8 2013, 01:21 PM   #80
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

One of my favorite displays of temporal mechanics is:
"Trash can... remember a trash can!"
Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
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Old November 8 2013, 06:38 PM   #81
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
If your point is that time travel stories should have some internal logic to them, then I agree. But the exact details of how time travel works can and will vary from story to story, and aren't beholden to your own rules of time travel logic.
Exactly. It's like with vampires. Back when I writing the UNDERWORLD books, I was surprised to discover how many people seemed to think there was a universal rulebook for vampires that every book or movie or TV show needed to follow: "This is stupid. Everyone knows vampires can't have babies! BUFFY said so!"

I kept having to explain that UNDERWORLD vampires did not necessarily follow the same rules as BUFFY vampires . . . or TRUE BLOOD vampires . . . or Anne Rice vampires . . . or Bram Stoker vampires or whatever.

Same with time-travel. Certainly, you don't want to rewrite the rules mid-story, but there's no reason that every time-travel story, from H.G. Wells on, has to follow the same playbook. Or even that every method of time-travel operations under the same conditions. Clearly, the atavachron operates differently than, say, the Guardian of Forever . . . ..
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Old November 8 2013, 07:09 PM   #82
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

I ran into this when a friend argued with me about an alien race I invented. I had them as powerful telepaths, who also had some sort of telekinetic ability. He insisted that it was impossible for them to have both. It was my own sci-fi universe, they were my own aliens, yet he kept insisting I was wrong.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:24 PM   #83
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
Well...

It obviously can at least bring people from the past to its "present".
But only people that it had already sent back. There's no evidence that someone "native" to the past could be brought forward. The Atavachron could be like the Guardian in that way: you can't come forward through it if you didn't originally go BACK through it.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:34 PM   #84
Greg Cox
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Melakon wrote: View Post
I ran into this when a friend argued with me about an alien race I invented. I had them as powerful telepaths, who also had some sort of telekinetic ability. He insisted that it was impossible for them to have both. It was my own sci-fi universe, they were my own aliens, yet he kept insisting I was wrong.
Yeah, it's almost as though they imprint on the first version of some trope they see and internalize those rules as The rules.

Granted, if you're plowing well-tilled soil like time-travel or vampires, it helps to spell out your rules clearly so the reader doesn't get confused. With UNDERWORLD, I always made a point of establishing early on in each book that "Contrary to myth, Selene could see herself in the mirror" and so on.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:56 PM   #85
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Or even that every method of time-travel operations under the same conditions. Clearly, the atavachron operates different than, say, the Guardian of Forever . . . ..
That's always been my take on it as well, where settings have multiple methods of time travel...whether the setting is Trek or a shared comic book universe. Silver/Bronze Age Superman stories, for instance, had their own set of rules when Superman was traveling through time under his own steam...but the rules might vary when, say, the Flash, Atom, or Green Lantern traveled through time via their individual methods.
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Old November 9 2013, 06:06 AM   #86
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Or even that every method of time-travel operations under the same conditions. Clearly, the atavachron operates different than, say, the Guardian of Forever . . . ..
That's always been my take on it as well, where settings have multiple methods of time travel...whether the setting is Trek or a shared comic book universe. Silver/Bronze Age Superman stories, for instance, had their own set of rules when Superman was traveling through time under his own steam...but the rules might vary when, say, the Flash, Atom, or Green Lantern traveled through time via their individual methods.
I can buy that. A crude analogy, but sort of like how a hybrid vehicle has differences from a conventional-fuel car, which are different from horse-drawn carriages. They all do basically the same thing, but each has its own peculiarities.

Maybe it's more accurate to compare it to how each alien race seems to have its own particular transporter effect.
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Old November 9 2013, 07:39 PM   #87
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Having one of these things right before the Big Rip might be handy as well.
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