RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,209
Posts: 5,437,300
Members: 24,951
Currently online: 578
Newest member: Zaminhon

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 2 2013, 12:05 AM   #91
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.
I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk. Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:08 AM   #92
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.
I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk. Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.
There are many great Kirk stories in those early novels and the DC Comics TOS first run.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:11 AM   #93
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.
I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk.
Wasn't me, but sure, I'll check them out when I have a chance, thanks.

Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.
Might let the comics be, though. I think I'd like to leave my TOS-formed sense of Kirk as a mensch-among-mensches to his fellow Captains (and occasional Commodores) unsullied.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:12 AM   #94
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.
I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk. Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.
There are many great Kirk stories in those early novels and the DC Comics TOS first run.
DC loved having Kirk's past choices coming back to bite his ass. Though "Homecoming" is really underrated: Kirk using the Federation version of CNN to save his ass and cause Starfleet such a big PR nightmare they end up giving him the Excelsior to command.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:14 AM   #95
teacock
Admiral
 
teacock's Avatar
 
Location: teacake
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post

teacock wrote:
LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!
Kinda why the Trek movie franchise started to suck at that point for me, I'll be honest. (That and the creatively cowardly, albeit lucrative, decision to literally resurrect Spock.)

Captain Kirk is a HERO. A larger than life fictional hero.

He's the one Trek character that fills that role with all its hyperbole and flying-in-the-face of everything and refusal to be as realistic as some people want.

He's a larger than life personality and I'm glad Trek just ran with that.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:18 AM   #96
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Just possible that "we" have not been reading him as anything, Bill. On account of not all fans are actually all that into many (or in some cases any) of the Trek novels.

teacock wrote:
LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!
Kinda why the Trek movie franchise started to suck at that point for me, I'll be honest. (That and the creatively cowardly, albeit lucrative, decision to literally resurrect Spock.)
If you check out the comics, start with "The Mirror Universe Saga" (epilogue to STIII and a sequel to Mirror Mirror), Idol Threats, Paradise Lost.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:19 AM   #97
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacock wrote: View Post
He's the one Trek character that fills that role with all its hyperbole and flying-in-the-face of everything and refusal to be as realistic as some people want.
Meh, I wouldn't say that TOS Kirk's strengths came from a "refusal to be realistic," more that he was Roddenberry's (and Shatner's) conception of an idealized larger-than-life (Space) Navy man of his era.

But I'm a uniter, not a divider. If we must agree to disagree on that (as I'm guessing we must, and notwithstanding my clarifications that nuTrek Kirk's character work isn't one of the things I dislike about nuTrek), surely we can agree that your Kate Mulgrew-and-the-Obamas avatar is pure unadulterated awesomeness.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:26 AM   #98
teacock
Admiral
 
teacock's Avatar
 
Location: teacake
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I mean the character is not realistic, if by realistic we mean how a real starfleet officer would behave. You seem to be saying that the movies went downhill in part because of this kind of storyline with Kirk, stealing the Enterprise etc.. I'm saying that while most of the good guys, dutiful starfleet officers, that Trek is full of behave in ways that are sensible within the context of their roles as officers. Kirk is a different kind of character, one in the hero role which steps outside of that. Trek doesn't fill itself with these kinds of characters because it tries to tell realistic stories about humanity in space but it does have one Hero who gets to pretty much do what he wants and come out on top, brilliantly. I'm saying that Captain Kirk is treated differently and is a unique individual as far as Trek goes.

And yes Kate is very happily married to Barack and has two lovely daughters neither of whom unfortunately is named Phoebe.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:40 AM   #99
Geoff Peterson
Fleet Admiral
 
Geoff Peterson's Avatar
 
Location: 20 feet from an outlet
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
NuTrek Kirk, on the other hand, shows (and I think is meant to show) very clear evidence of not having grown up with a father figure to form him. He's a different, wilder character, and in many ways is a bit of an irresponsible punk... in fact that's explicitly part of his character arc, especially in the second movie. I'm not even saying it as a criticism, there was a lot of character work in nuTrek that of itself wasn't bad. But it's a genuine contrast between the characters.
This Jim Kirk is also nearly a decade younger than the Jim Kirk we get to know starting with Where No Man Has Gone Before. Just because he was a tight-ass at the Academy doesn't mean he didn't have his wild days where he partied and fooled around with women. Like most twenty-somethings.
I think Ruth, Janice Wallace and Carol Marcus could attest to that.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Geoff Peterson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:47 AM   #100
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
If you check out the comics, start with "The Mirror Universe Saga" (epilogue to STIII and a sequel to Mirror Mirror), Idol Threats, Paradise Lost.
Thanks for the links! They're appreciated.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 12:53 AM   #101
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacock wrote: View Post
I mean the character is not realistic, if by realistic we mean how a real starfleet officer would behave.
TOS Kirk gets away with far more bucking of authority than any real Navy officer would -- even of the Royal Navy of the 19th century, which Starfleet is arguably more than half-modeled on. But he's always acting within the authority of his command and making command decisions he can defend. By contrast:

You seem to be saying that the movies went downhill in part because of this kind of storyline with Kirk, stealing the Enterprise etc..
Yes, hijacking a ship and sabotaging another one Because Friends was a bad sign; we're meant to accept them as Kirk-like actions (though give Shatner due credit, he successfully sold them as "getting old, lovin' my friends and not givin' a f*ck"), but overall they were really a sign to me of sentimentality starting to suck the franchise down its deadly maw.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 01:06 AM   #102
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
teacock wrote: View Post
I mean the character is not realistic, if by realistic we mean how a real starfleet officer would behave.
TOS Kirk gets away with far more bucking of authority than any real Navy officer would -- even of the Royal Navy of the 19th century, which Starfleet is arguably more than half-modeled on. But he's always acting within the authority of his command and making command decisions he can defend. By contrast:

You seem to be saying that the movies went downhill in part because of this kind of storyline with Kirk, stealing the Enterprise etc..
Yes, hijacking a ship and sabotaging another one Because Friends was a bad sign; we're meant to accept them as Kirk-like actions (though give Shatner due credit, he successfully sold them as "getting old, lovin' my friends and not givin' a f*ck"), but overall they were really a sign to me of sentimentality starting to suck the franchise down its deadly maw.
Well they're are Kirk like. He disobeyed orders and took Spock to Vulcan in Amok Time. He delayed a medical supply delivery cause he didn't want to give up on Spock and Co. in Galileo Seven. Kirk's been known to put friends ahead of his career.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 01:12 AM   #103
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
teacock wrote: View Post
I mean the character is not realistic, if by realistic we mean how a real starfleet officer would behave.
TOS Kirk gets away with far more bucking of authority than any real Navy officer would -- even of the Royal Navy of the 19th century, which Starfleet is arguably more than half-modeled on. But he's always acting within the authority of his command and making command decisions he can defend. By contrast:

You seem to be saying that the movies went downhill in part because of this kind of storyline with Kirk, stealing the Enterprise etc..
Yes, hijacking a ship and sabotaging another one Because Friends was a bad sign; we're meant to accept them as Kirk-like actions (though give Shatner due credit, he successfully sold them as "getting old, lovin' my friends and not givin' a f*ck"), but overall they were really a sign to me of sentimentality starting to suck the franchise down its deadly maw.
Not quite sure what you mean. I guess you're saying the entire story itself shouldn't have been told because it took the characters beyond believability. But that was the story, so playing within its context, if Kirk believes there's any chance at all of finding Spock and he can be saved, shouldn't he try to save him? It becomes a rescue mission for all points and purposes. I don't see any sentimentality in it. He unknowingly abandoned Spock, and is trying to make it right.
Essentially being called old and irrelevant by Starfleet (especially after rediscovering himself in TWOK) may motivate him to go further outside the lines on Spock's behalf that he normally would, but in TVH, we see he was more than willing to accept his punishment for it. Before, he always had a plausible explanation for his acts. This time, he offered no defense.

Further, by that logic, jeopardizing the mission in TVH to save Chekov is another sentimental moment, I guess. Should they consider the death of one good crewman compared to saving the world an acceptable loss and move on? Would that be more in character? More realistic? Essentially leaving a wounded fellow soldier who can be saved back behind the lines instead of trying to retrieve him?
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 01:13 AM   #104
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
[ ... ]

When we learn from one of the few bits of TOS backstory in (was it "Shore Leave"? or "Obsession," maybe?) that Kirk had a reputation as an incredible tight-ass when he lectured at the Academy, the information isn't surprising.
In "Shore Leave" he talks about being an oh-so-serious midshipman, tormented by upperclassman Finnegan, and in "Obsession" about his first deep-space assignment as a junior officer under Capt. Garrovick. We learn about "think or sink" Academy instructor Lt. Kirk from Gary Mitchell in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
__________________
The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but
that the lightning ain't distributed right.
— Mark Twain
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2 2013, 01:36 AM   #105
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
We learn about "think or sink" Academy instructor Lt. Kirk from Gary Mitchell in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
I thank you, that's the precise connection I was groping for.

It's quite interesting that in general, from those examples, the picture we get is of a serious-minded kid who was tormented by precisely the kind of brawling personality we see NuTrek Kirk become, growing into a serious-minded officer. That's consistent with the mental picture I have of TOS Kirk.

(EDIT: You know, it occurs to me that it really did add to the character of Kirk for me that he had a backstory as, if not quite a geek, then something of a Poindexter. It's a more interesting character evolution, perhaps, than evolving from Bro-to-Captain, and I have to wonder if I'll particularly care for the Young Jerkass Kirk I'm told here is ubiquitous in the novels.)

About Search for Spock:

Franklin wrote:
I guess you're saying the entire story itself shouldn't have been told because it took the characters beyond believability.
Officer thinking, Mister Franklin, that is entirely correct. (EDIT: misattribution corrected.)

if Kirk believes there's any chance at all of finding Spock and he can be saved, shouldn't he try to save him? It becomes a rescue mission for all points and purposes.
Starfleet presumably has missions and tasks that are bigger than one man. That's in fact the whole dramatic message (and a powerful and beautiful one) of Spock's noble death: "It is logical that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." The entire story concept undermines Spock's wisdom, and what's much much worse, undermines the dramatic power of his death.

It's sensible for Kirk to try to persuade Starfleet to have a rescue mission, but godawful and way out of character to have him hijacking and sabotaging Federation ships that presumably have important jobs to do so that he can be the one to conduct it. But far worse yet is having a story that revolves around literally resurrecting Spock at all. (And yes, I know they left the door open for some part of Spock to survive with the "remember" sequence in TWOK. But that didn't have to be taken to the point of actual resurrection.)
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig

Last edited by BigSnake; November 2 2013 at 01:49 AM.
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.