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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 13 2013, 12:58 AM   #946
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It's too bad Orci had to respond to the "they're shitting in my christmas tree" criticisms at that one site.
I think after fours years of abuse on the Internet, it was only human for him to lash out. I think some folks forget that he is a huge fan himself and the drubbing he's taken has likely pushed him over the edge.

Nobody's perfect.
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Old December 13 2013, 01:27 AM   #947
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Eggnog Balrog wrote: View Post
I prefer cornflakes with no urine, please.
You'll eat what we got, monkey boy.

(SRSLY, though. I think it's great that people say they don't care if people don't like the films. And I think once that's actually true these threads will be a lot easier to read.)
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Old December 13 2013, 01:45 AM   #948
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It's too bad Orci had to respond to the "they're shitting in my christmas tree" criticisms at that one site.
I think after fours years of abuse on the Internet, it was only human for him to lash out. I think some folks forget that he is a huge fan himself and the drubbing he's taken has likely pushed him over the edge.

Nobody's perfect.
Have any of the other Trek writers done something similar? Ron Moore himself was mailed death threats for killing Kirk. Even for killing K'Ehelyr he got so much backlash.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:03 AM   #949
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

Have any of the other Trek writers done something similar? Ron Moore himself was mailed death threats for killing Kirk. Even for killing K'Ehelyr he got so much backlash.
Different people handle things differently. Plus, most of that happened before internet bashing ramped up to its current levels. Back then a few folks had 56k modems at best, now everyone is connected either via broadband or cell phone.

I'm sure Berman and Company would've been dealing with entirely different levels of Hell if they were producing Trek now.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:11 AM   #950
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Basically if you're going to read and post on a fan-forum that discusses your writing, you need to have very thick skin. Otherwise it's best just not to go there. It's never excusable or professional to go off on your fans on a fan-forum, especially not in the circumstances Orci did.

Having said that, he's not the first writer it's happened to. Others have done much worse. It's just another data point for the general proposition that writers should usually steer clear of fan-forums about their work. (With a few exceptions.)
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Old December 13 2013, 02:34 AM   #951
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Really? No one [cares] that people don't like the film? There's a whole lot of protest going on here about it for no one caring.
No. No one cares that people don't like the film. Some do care, however, those people go about distributing their message.

It's not what you say, it's how and why you say it.

I'm often asked why I'm vegan. I tell people that I disapprove of the inhumane practices often instituted by modern, corporate farming. As a lover of animals, I personally don't find it necessary to eat them in the modern world. I have never, however, said "Meat is murder!"

See the difference?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
That's why I said "nevermind the mouth breathing haters". Just because guys like those exists doesn't mean I should plug my ears and think I'm doing no wrong. Those folks will always exist, it's just a matter of finding the right place with people writing down their thoughts and criticisms.
This is a bit disingenuous coming from someone who just invoked the "lazy writing" clause. Hating is exactly what that does.

It implies Orci and Kurtzman don't work hard. That's such a ridiculous thing to even suggest that how else are people supposed to take it but hateful?



It's the same problem I have with SUPERMAN RETURNS where it has a bunch of throwbacks to the original Donner film that feel completely unnecessary and only remind you how much better the older film is.
And here's another popular choice of bait: Old Trek is so much better than nuTrek.

By all [unbiased] empirical and critical evidence, the difference in quality between TWOK and STiD is negligible at best. If there's any doubt, open the respective RT pages and do some reading.

but with the latter you can at least let your opinions be known and if there's enough criticism maybe the filmmakers will take them into consideration when doing the next film.
No.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:42 AM   #952
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
This is a bit disingenuous coming from someone who just invoked the "lazy writing" clause. Hating is exactly what that does.
No. Describing is what that does. It means that there's something in the writing that with minor edits -- from the reader's perspective -- could have been made to work better but was not, for whatever reason, fixed.

This has nothing to do with the writer's process. Maybe they made the edits in a version that didn't get used. Maybe the studio overruled suggested edits. Maybe they sweated blood over a version that rivalled the transcendent mastery of Tarkovsky and were ignored. Maybe none of those things happened. There's no way to know, and none of that is what "lazy writing" refers to. It refers to the quality of the writing.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:44 AM   #953
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Coach Comet wrote: View Post
I don't consider the assertion that "Absolutely nothing in STID is a rip-off of TWOK" to be an extreme position. I consider it to be a statement of fact. One reason that I do, among others, is that TWOK and STID, both being Star Trek films, are two films in the same series. That alone makes it erroneous to characterize any intentional copying of elements from the former into the latter as a rip-off. The implication of the use of the term rip-off is that some sort of theft has occurred. That's simply impossible in this case.
Legal theft? No.

Creative theft? Dramatic theft? Indication of lazy writing? Yeah, I'd say so. And before somebody goes off on a "You must be a Berman fan" rant again, I wasn't impressed with "The Naked Now," either.
So, then, I guess we can accuse TWOK and TUC of the same thing, in their case having characters appropriate or adapt lines from literature to their dialog ("I'll chase him...", "Tickle us...").

TMP is largely "just" an adaptation of The Changeling, so its hands aren't clean.

Each of TSFS, TVH, and GEN actually reused footage from its immediately previous film.

Gee, whiz, counting STID, we can tar over half of the Trek films with same brush of laziness.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:48 AM   #954
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
So, then, I guess we can accuse TWOK and TUC of the same thing, in their case having characters appropriate or adapt lines from literature to their dialog ("I'll chase him...", "Tickle us...").

TMP is largely "just" an adaptation of The Changeling, so its hands aren't clean.

Each of TSFS, TVH, and GEN actually reused footage from its immediately previous film.

Gee, whiz, counting STID, we can tar over half of the Trek films with same brush of laziness.
But... but... but... Abrams... childhood... raped... Orci... lazy... thief...
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Old December 13 2013, 02:51 AM   #955
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
There's no way to know, and none of that is what "lazy writing" refers to. It refers to the quality of the writing.
No English dictionary in the world equates "lazy" to a measurement of quality.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:52 AM   #956
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
BigKrampus wrote: View Post
There's no way to know, and none of that is what "lazy writing" refers to. It refers to the quality of the writing.
No English dictionary in the world equates "lazy" to a measurement of quality.
Exactly. Lazy means lazy.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:59 AM   #957
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

So including an homage to a previous installment of the series is "lazy writing"?
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Old December 13 2013, 03:00 AM   #958
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
No English dictionary in the world equates "lazy" to a measurement of quality.
"Lazy" can however be (and often is) a description of the writing and not the writers.

When someone says that the use of a god-being in the first episode of Voyager was a "lazy trope," they are not describing the writers. Nobody cares how many man-hours they spent on that lazy trope, the point is that the trope itself is unimaginative, uninteresting, not doing the work it should be in the script. The same is true when someone describes a piece of writing as "tired" or "uninspired." They're not describing the writer's process. They're describing the text. This should not be a very difficult point.

Coach Comet wrote:
So, then, I guess we can accuse TWOK and TUC of the same thing
Do you really believe adapting material from elsewhere to a script is the same thing as mirroring an entire sequence beat-for-beat from another movie's script?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you do not really believe that.
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Old December 13 2013, 03:00 AM   #959
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
So including an homage to a previous installment of the series is "lazy writing"?
Apparently so.
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Old December 13 2013, 03:04 AM   #960
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
No English dictionary in the world equates "lazy" to a measurement of quality.
"Lazy" can however be (and often is) a description of the writing and not the writers.

When someone says that the use of a god-being in the first episode of Voyager was a "lazy trope," they are not describing the writers. Nobody cares how many man-hours they spent on that lazy trope, the point is that the trope itself is unimaginative, uninteresting, not doing the work it should be in the script. The same is true when someone describes a piece of writing as "tired" or "uninspired." They're not describing the writer's process. They're describing the text. This should not be a very difficult point.
I for one expect a godlike alien in my Trek pilots. Enterprise failed because there wasn't one in "Broken Bow".
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