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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 12 2013, 10:23 PM   #931
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
...but don't piss on the fans' cornflakes either.
It's obviously all some people have left. Trek took a turn they didn't like so they need to make everyone as miserable as they are.
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Old December 12 2013, 11:10 PM   #932
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I prefer cornflakes with no urine, please.
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Old December 12 2013, 11:23 PM   #933
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Eggnog Balrog wrote: View Post
I prefer cornflakes with no urine, please.
Yea, they're much better with milk
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Old December 12 2013, 11:25 PM   #934
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Two kinds of responses to posts by others - the first is a response to the substance of the post, and poses a question:
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Can't we just say that using Khan like they did in STID was a mistake?
Well I certainly wouldn't have used him at all, and would've used him differently, myself. Can't say it was a mistake, however. Just different from what I would have expected.
You wouldn't have used him at all, but you would have used him differently. But if you wouldn't have used him at all, how could you have used him...

Norman, coordinate.
This is fine. Sarcastic, but fine.

The second attempts to put words into the mouth of one poster and (in the "doubt you misunderstood" part) takes a roundabout swipe at another:
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Belz means if Lindelof, obviously mentally unbalanced, held a gun to his head and forced him to use Khan, he would have written Khan differently. But I doubt you misunderstood that anyway...
This is not fine. Please don't do that. You should address your remarks to the content of the post(s), and avoid attacking the poster(s).

BillJ wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
...but don't piss on the fans' cornflakes either.
It's obviously all some people have left. Trek took a turn they didn't like so they need to make everyone as miserable as they are.
Here, too - let's aim for "post, not poster(s)."
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Old December 12 2013, 11:30 PM   #935
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post

So why expect non-ST fans to discuss Star Trek?
Part of the discussion was about Into Darkness falling out of favor with general audiences. My point was that pretty much all of the Trek films are of no interest to general audiences once they see it on home video or at the theater. So using general audiences long term interest as a barometer of quality really isn't useful.

General audiences watch something then move on whether they liked it or not.
But if they liked it, wouldn't they be more apt to check out other Trek movies, TV shows, books, or comics?

I have to admit to being out of touch with what typical movie-goers do. I haven't casually gone to see a movie (as in not knowing whether or not I'd like it) since last century. Happily that one turned out to be Toy Story 2; I discovered I enjoyed it, and have since seen some of the other Toy Story stuff.

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Belz means if Lindelof, obviously mentally unbalanced, held a gun to his head and forced him to use Khan, he would have written Khan differently. But I doubt you misunderstood that anyway...
Belz' post was unclear, and it would be nice if you refrained from pretending you understood what I meant by my post.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Creative theft? Dramatic theft? Indication of lazy writing? Yeah, I'd say so.
It's not theft. "Theft," "ripoff," or whatever the word-of-the-day is implies a conscious intent to do harm.

This is why people gang up on the "haters." No one gives two shits that people don't like the film. But when they use such obvious loaded language to skew the discussion in their favor, it becomes very hard to take them seriously.

No one is forcing anyone to like the film, but don't piss on the fans' cornflakes either.
Oh, goody - finally somebody admits to ganging up on people who dislike the Abrams movies.

Y'know, the other day I saw a post where somebody bitched that the Crow TV series wasn't like the movie. I thought about writing a post that explains why the TV series is just as wonderful in its own way as the movie was, and so on... but opted not to feed another potential argument. The person who didn't like it is entitled to his opinion. I'm not going to rant and scream or mock him because his opinion doesn't agree with mine.

I'm entitled to my opinion about the nuTrek movies. I don't care if you love it, hate it, or something inbetween.

It does become hard to take seriously all the handwaving and excuses people come up with, though, to gloss over the problems the movies have, and the FACT that an iconic scene and some iconic dialogue was lifted from another movie. I don't give a damn if it's the same franchise. It's lazy, and makes me wonder if these people are capable of writing original material.

EDIT: @M'Sharak: I hadn't noticed your post before I posted the above.
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Old December 12 2013, 11:39 PM   #936
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
It does become hard to take seriously all the handwaving and excuses people come up with, though, to gloss over the problems the movies have, and the FACT that an iconic scene and some iconic dialogue was lifted from another movie. I don't give a damn if it's the same franchise. It's lazy, and makes me wonder if these people are capable of writing original material.
I think the biggest problem is you act offended that people don't have the same issues with the movie that you do and you seem offended that people are defending their positions.

I've said time and again that I don't believe Star Trek Into Darkness is a perfect movie, as have many others. But I find it a Hell of a lot of fun to watch. As far as the scenes that are similar to The Wrath of Khan, I admit when I first heard about it I rolled my eyes. However, when I actually saw it in action, I thought it was incredibly well done and stands on its own.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
But if they liked it, wouldn't they be more apt to check out other Trek movies, TV shows, books, or comics?
I don't know, some may. I really liked the Captain America movie, but I haven't went rushing to the comic store to buy up back issues of the series'. Sometimes, I simply enjoy something for what it is then move on to the next thing.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:04 AM   #937
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Oh, goody - finally somebody admits to ganging up on people who dislike the Abrams movies.
So not only did you ignore the point, you completely misrepresented it.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:20 AM   #938
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Creative theft? Dramatic theft? Indication of lazy writing? Yeah, I'd say so.
It's not theft. "Theft," "ripoff," or whatever the word-of-the-day is implies a conscious intent to do harm.

This is why people gang up on the "haters." No one gives two shits that people don't like the film. But when they use such obvious loaded language to skew the discussion in their favor, it becomes very hard to take them seriously.

No one is forcing anyone to like the film, but don't piss on the fans' cornflakes either.
Really? No one [cares] that people don't like the film? There's a whole lot of protest going on here about it for no one caring.

Your last two paragraphs would apply just as easily if the roles were reversed, reckless generalizations notwithstanding.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:24 AM   #939
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Lazy writing isn't fun, in fact it can be a killjoy. I was rolling along with the flick, flaws and all, and then that scene happened and I started to cringe. The most positive thing I can say was that Pine* fucking delivered in that scene, "I'm scared, Spock", he was so good in that it almost made me forgive the laziness of it the scene, but then Spock's yell plunged it straight to hell (or, San Fransisco). We could be getting some bold and original, but instead it's call backs to better Trek stories. It's the same problem I have with SUPERMAN RETURNS where it has a bunch of throwbacks to the original Donner film that feel completely unnecessary and only remind you how much better the older film is.

*= It actually puzzles me that Pine doesn't get enough props. Usually it's Quinto that gets all the praise. I may not like the way nuKirk is written, but Pine's a great actor in it. That's what keeps me from writing off all of nuTrek, is the fact that they have a really good cast. If they get a script that's among the best of Trek, man oh man, it would be fantastic.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:25 AM   #940
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Really? No one [cares] that people don't like the film? There's a whole lot of protest going on here about it.
Whether someone likes something or not is a personal choice but I'm not sure what it accomplishes to constantly bang on it. If I really dislike something, I move on to things that I do like. Is it really necessary for me to go to the Voyager forum and tell them how shitty I think their show is? What exactly is the point of me pissing on something someone else enjoys?

The only time I really jump in is when there is a misrepresentation of what is actually on screen or the famous "Star Trek never did that!!!"
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Old December 13 2013, 12:31 AM   #941
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Lazy writing isn't fun, in fact it can be a killjoy. I was rolling along with the flick, flaws and all, and then that scene happened and I started to cringe.
But there are many that don't think it's lazy writing and enjoy the callback to something they're familiar with.

If I was in charge of the films I'd be doing a remake of either "The Cage" or "Where No Man..." and I guarantee I'd be lifting whole fucking chunks of the original scripts and putting them in my film because they are that good. I have no issues with Abrams and Company thinking something is awesome and using it in a new movie. YMMV.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:32 AM   #942
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Really? No one [cares] that people don't like the film? There's a whole lot of protest going on here about it.
Whether someone likes something or not is a personal choice but I'm not sure what it accomplishes to constantly bang on it. If I really dislike something, I move on to things that I do like. Is it really necessary for me to go to the Voyager forum and tell them how shitty I think their show is? What exactly is the point of me pissing on something someone else enjoys?

The only time I really jump in is when there is a misrepresentation of what is actually on screen or the famous "Star Trek never did that!!!"
The difference is that with nuTrek it's very relevant. On the former you'd be going off about a series that ended long ago, but with the latter you can at least let your opinions be known and if there's enough criticism maybe the filmmakers will take them into consideration when doing the next film. Orci claims to keep an ear out for Trek fans when making these films, so we're letting him know how we felt, nevermind the mouth breathing haters that "choose" how they feel about the films rather than go with their own gut. I don't "choose" to dislike nuTrek anymore than I can "choose" to like TOS. If it could be as easy as making a decision to like something or not, I'd like all of Trek.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:40 AM   #943
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Lazy writing isn't fun, in fact it can be a killjoy. I was rolling along with the flick, flaws and all, and then that scene happened and I started to cringe.
But there are many that don't think it's lazy writing and enjoy the callback to something they're familiar with.
They're free to think that way. That doesn't mean I have to conform to that.

If I was in charge of the films I'd be doing a remake of either "The Cage" or "Where No Man..." and I guarantee I'd be lifting whole fucking chunks of the original scripts and putting them in my film because they are that good. I have no issues with Abrams and Company thinking something is awesome and using it in a new movie. YMMV.
I can see the appeal of doing those as films, because a budget can bring out so much more. I was very open to the idea of Gary Mitchell when those rumors popped out. So long as the new film did it in its own way and didn't lift too much out of the original pilot. It's taking a premise and doing something new with it, rather than remaking something very specific like what was done in STID with that scene in the chamber. You may have enjoyed it, but I found it cringeworthy, so I'll let that be known just as you'll let it be known that you thought it was cool.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:45 AM   #944
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

The difference is that with nuTrek it's very relevant. On the former you'd be going off about a series that ended long ago, but with the latter you can at least let your opinions be known and if there's enough criticism maybe the filmmakers will take them into consideration when doing the next film.
But actual criticism and what goes on here much of the time (all you have to do is look up a few posts and see someone calling Lindelof "mentally unbalanced") are totally different things.

"This didn't work for me and here's why", is far different than "I think Ken Biller is a (insert random hate) and I think he writes scripts with generic crayons". The latter is from loons who take this shit way too seriously, the former comes across as an intelligent (most of the time) critique that can be debated. We seriously have people going on about how Orci stole something from a prior Trek film yet we rarely hear those same charges leveled at much of Modern Trek that seemingly lifted stuff week after week from what came before. We have the big known offenders like Star Trek: The Motion Picture and "The Naked Now", but if we really went through all of Trek with as fine a comb as we've went through Star Trek Into Darkness we would find many, many similarities. We have people accusing writers of theft because of two minutes out of a 127-minute movie.

I simply think it's crazy.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:53 AM   #945
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

That's why I said "nevermind the mouth breathing haters". Just because guys like those exists doesn't mean I should plug my ears and think I'm doing no wrong. Those folks will always exist, it's just a matter of finding the right place with people writing down their thoughts and criticisms. It's too bad Orci had to respond to the "they're shitting in my christmas tree" criticisms at that one site.
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