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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 1 2013, 10:31 PM   #76
teacock
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Do people honestly believe that TOS Kirk if propositioned by two beautiful females while on shore leave would say no?
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Old November 1 2013, 10:44 PM   #77
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacock wrote: View Post
Do people honestly believe that TOS Kirk if propositioned by two beautiful females while on shore leave would say no?
Yep (as in I agree with you). And would he even wait to be propositioned? From two cases of being on leave in TOS:

Wolf in the Fold:
Kirk: Bones, I know a little place across town where the women --.
McCoy: Oh, yes. I know the place. Let's go.

And at the end of Shore Leave, he's willing to let Spock stay for leave while he goes back to the ship until he sees Ruth, again. Then he changes his mind and says he thinks he'll stay for a day or two.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:10 PM   #78
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

And don't forget all the 'suggestive' laughing at the end of Shore Leave.

wink, wink, nudge, nudge say no more...
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Old November 1 2013, 11:18 PM   #79
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

So, Jim Kirk...is he a goer?
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Old November 1 2013, 11:22 PM   #80
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacock wrote: View Post
Do people honestly believe that TOS Kirk if propositioned by two beautiful females while on shore leave would say no?
I'm not so sure it would even come up. [Insert "that's what she said" joke at your convenience.] The TOS trope is a bit cheesy but it has a point to it, which is conveying that almost everything about the character is duty-driven.

When we learn from one of the few bits of TOS backstory in (was it "Shore Leave"? or "Obsession," maybe?) that Kirk had a reputation as an incredible tight-ass when he lectured at the Academy, the information isn't surprising. His capability and confidence are obvious aphrodisiacs, he appreciates women, but the only thing in the universe he truly loves is his ship and his command, and his defining traits are duty and responsibility. Focussed in a different direction, those traits would more probably make him a devoted husband and homebuilder than a player: arguably that's exactly why he settles down to boring monogamous married life so readily in the planetful-of-Injuns episode where he's convinced that he's "Kirok."

NuTrek Kirk, on the other hand, shows (and I think is meant to show) very clear evidence of not having grown up with a father figure to form him. He's a different, wilder character, and in many ways is a bit of an irresponsible punk... in fact that's explicitly part of his character arc, especially in the second movie. I'm not even saying it as a criticism, there was a lot of character work in nuTrek that of itself wasn't bad. But it's a genuine contrast between the characters.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:26 PM   #81
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
So, Jim Kirk...is he a goer?
He's from Iowa... say no more!
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Old November 1 2013, 11:27 PM   #82
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Nope. This whole trope is something completely made up by people seeking a needless and unwarranted justification for sex.
Now this is a bit more interesting. Although I think your above statement is completely false, I have to admit

Since you brought up the Bond comparison, let's look at 60s bond [review snipped]
You make a very good case that the Bond comparison isn't a good one, and I happily concede. However:

I guarantee you can go episode by episode, girl by girl and get the same results for Kirk.
I'm pretty sure this is completely wrong. My recollection accords with what Archive of Our Own has to say:

Archive of Our Own wrote:
Kirk does appreciate women, but most of Kirk's seductions are intended to accomplish a mission-related goal, such as to distract the woman, to secure her help, to gain more information about the situation, and so on. For example, he kisses Andrea in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" to try to confuse her and to gain her loyalty. He flirts with Miri in the episode of the same name in order to soothe her fears and to get her on their side. He kisses Sylvia in "Catspaw" to try to get information out of her. He kisses Marlena in "Mirror, Mirror" partly to maintain his cover and partly to gain her as an ally. Kelinda in "By Any Other Name," Shahana in "Gamesters of Triskelion" ... the list of women Kirk seduces in order to further non-sexual ends goes on and on. It's clear that Kirk's sexuality is a weapon as potent as his phaser . . . But using his charisma for instrumental purposes is very different from being totally driven by his sexuality.
Now, I haven't quite gone episode by episode (maybe someone has? if it's happened anywhere it would have to be here), but I'm pretty sure that doing so would confirm the above picture.
TOS Kirk (assuming your view is correct--something I concede only to make this point) is OLDER and MORE MATURE than Abrams' Kirk. The latter is working his way to the other's level of experience and maturity--why this seems to escape so many people is astonishing to me. Anyone who thinks Pine/Kirk should be the same as TOS Kirk is wrong in thinking that way. It's really not a matter of opinion. They can disagree with the way the writers have written Pine/Kirk, but there are NO grounds to expect a carbon copy of TOS Kirk in terms of behaviour. None.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:27 PM   #83
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
NuTrek Kirk, on the other hand, shows (and I think is meant to show) very clear evidence of not having grown up with a father figure to form him. He's a different, wilder character, and in many ways is a bit of an irresponsible punk... in fact that's explicitly part of his character arc, especially in the second movie. I'm not even saying it as a criticism, there was a lot of character work in nuTrek that of itself wasn't bad. But it's a genuine contrast between the characters.
This Jim Kirk is also nearly a decade younger than the Jim Kirk we get to know starting with Where No Man Has Gone Before. Just because he was a tight-ass at the Academy doesn't mean he didn't have his wild days where he partied and fooled around with women. Like most twenty-somethings.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:37 PM   #84
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Yes TOS Kirk is duty driven, and crew driven, and ship driven.

None of that precludes being in bed with two beautiful women while on shore leave. It does mean though that if Spock hails him about some minor problem right before he jumps into bed he's likely to say, "Sorry ladies.." and rush back to the ship.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:42 PM   #85
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ovation wrote: View Post
TOS Kirk (assuming your view is correct--something I concede only to make this point) is OLDER and MORE MATURE than Abrams' Kirk.
Oh, I completely agree. Moreover, TOS Kirk grew up with a completely different background than Abrams' Kirk; if the original is implied to have been a duty-driven Starfleet brat for most of his life, that by no means indicates the Abramstrek version should be likewise. I'm just pointing out that there is in fact a difference between the characters.

(Of the two of them, frankly, I'd rather go drinking with nuTrek Kirk any day of the week. Not so sure he's the one I'd rather serve under on a Starship... but the Pine character isn't necessarily Wrong.)
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Old November 1 2013, 11:51 PM   #86
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
TOS Kirk (assuming your view is correct--something I concede only to make this point) is OLDER and MORE MATURE than Abrams' Kirk.
Oh, I completely agree. Moreover, TOS Kirk grew up with a completely different background than Abrams' Kirk; if the original is implied to have been a duty-driven Starfleet brat for most of his life, that by no means indicates the Abramstrek version should be likewise. I'm just pointing out that there is in fact a difference between the characters.

(Of the two of them, frankly, I'd rather go drinking with nuTrek Kirk any day of the week. Not so sure he's the one I'd rather serve under on a Starship... but the Pine character isn't necessarily Wrong.)
Nu-Kirk is definitely drawn from the novel and comic versions of how Prime-Kirk's early life was and how his reputation is seen among others in the fleet: Smart mouth, genius, with a bad attitude that needs a kick in the ass and made to straighten up.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:54 PM   #87
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:55 PM   #88
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Nu-Kirk is definitely drawn from the novel and comic versions of how Prime-Kirk's early life was and how his reputation is seen among others in the fleet: Smart mouth, genius, with a bad attitude that needs a kick in the ass and made to straighten up.
I don't understand why this Kirk is such a shock to Trek fans? We've been reading the young Kirk as a dick for thirty years in the novels, including Starfleet Academy: Collision Course by William Shatner.
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Old November 1 2013, 11:58 PM   #89
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Of course he was a hothead. You can see it in TOS Kirk, it's just we also see a mature, experienced, seasoned man. Who is wildly intelligent as well.

LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!
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Old November 2 2013, 12:00 AM   #90
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Just possible that "we" have not been reading him as anything, Bill. On account of not all fans are actually all that into many (or in some cases any) of the Trek novels.

teacock wrote:
LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!
Kinda why the Trek movie franchise started to suck at that point for me, I'll be honest. (That and the creatively cowardly, albeit lucrative, decision to literally resurrect Spock.)
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