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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 5 2013, 06:22 AM   #796
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Agenda wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Take the Khan from Space Seed and put him under the boot of a "inferior" man for a year, and you get STID Khan.
Maybe, maybe not. According to Orci and co, that's what you get.
Odd comment. Sort of like reading the statement "take the Khan from Space Seed and put him on a hellhole of a world for 15 years, and you get TWOK Khan" and then responding Maybe, maybe not. According to Bennett and co, that's what you get.
Maybe it is odd. But maybe if nuKhan was better realized, I wouldn't be so skeptical.
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Old December 5 2013, 06:30 AM   #797
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Agenda wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Agenda wrote: View Post

Maybe, maybe not. According to Orci and co, that's what you get.
Odd comment. Sort of like reading the statement "take the Khan from Space Seed and put him on a hellhole of a world for 15 years, and you get TWOK Khan" and then responding Maybe, maybe not. According to Bennett and co, that's what you get.
Maybe it is odd. But maybe if nuKhan was better realized, I wouldn't be so skeptical.
It's odd, because of course thats what Orci and co. would have you believe, they wrote it.

The idea that Khan would chafe under the the thumb on someone he sees as inferior, doesn't seem far fetched.
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Old December 5 2013, 06:36 AM   #798
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

^ But if Khan is so superior, how could he have allowed himself to be chafed? He should have used his so-called smarts to find a way to outsmart Marcus and get his "crew" to safety.
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Old December 5 2013, 06:47 AM   #799
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ But if Khan is so superior, how could he have allowed himself to be chafed? He should have used his so-called smarts to find a way to outsmart Marcus and get his "crew" to safety.
Marcus is laughing at the superior intellect. Though Khan had the last laugh.
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Old December 5 2013, 06:57 AM   #800
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ But if Khan is so superior, how could he have allowed himself to be chafed? He should have used his so-called smarts to find a way to outsmart Marcus and get his "crew" to safety.
Well that's what he did, wasn't it? Granted it was a back and forth game between Marcus and Khan with the torpedoes:
Khans put his people in--Marcus tries to use them on Khan--Khan nearly gets them back.

The mistake was the same one Khan made in TWOK: Ego. He was so sure that he had Spock figured out. Khan had been told by Marcus that he needed Khan cause there was no one savage enough to plan/fight the impending war. Khan didn't think that the man that "can't be expected to break bone" might be willing to sacrifice "innocents" just to take out Khan and the Vengeance. It was a move that Khan might make, but wouldn't expect from Spock or anyone else he'd encountered on the Enterprise.
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Old December 5 2013, 08:10 AM   #801
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

To take things out of order:

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.
He's only in the position of relying on Marla's loyalties because his automatic reaction to the world around him is an attempt at conquest.

(I need me one of them nifty holiday-season nicks...)

An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism.
Except... we're told quite explicitly that they don't in both the words and actions of the Enterprise crew. They represent dictatorship, they represent science gone wrong, Khan certainly represents overweening arrogance... but they also represent vast potential. In the quote you provide, Khan isn't just some deluded racist twit who mistakenly imagines himself to be superior, he actually is measurably superior -- a character conceived as a giant of a man. Just not in the moral sense.

That's why they are the "Space Seed." It's why they're seeded on a planet at the end of the episode in order to give them more time to adjust to, or develop into a condition to join, the modern age. Of course all of that is also largely absent from STID Khan, that's another difference in the writing.
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Old December 5 2013, 09:02 AM   #802
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
To take things out of order:

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.
He's only in the position of relying on Marla's loyalties because his automatic reaction to the world around him is an attempt at conquest.

(I need me one of them nifty holiday-season nicks...)

An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism.
Except... we're told quite explicitly that they don't in both the words and actions of the Enterprise crew. They represent dictatorship, they represent science gone wrong, Khan certainly represents overweening arrogance... but they also represent vast potential. In the quote you provide, Khan isn't just some deluded racist twit who mistakenly imagines himself to be superior, he actually is measurably superior -- a character conceived as a giant of a man. Just not in the moral sense.

That's why they are the "Space Seed." It's why they're seeded on a planet at the end of the episode in order to give them more time to adjust to, or develop into a condition to join, the modern age. Of course all of that is also largely absent from STID Khan, that's another difference in the writing.
I think you've somewhat misread Space Seed.

The title has a double, if not triple, meaning. First, the SS Botany Bay exists as a space seed, as originally intended by those who launched it. Second, the first meaning itself is an allusion to the colonization of Australia by convicts, and I would suggest that the launchers intended that allusion. Third, the other meaning is of course the colonization of Ceti Alpha VI by the supermen and Marla.

Ceti Alpha VI was not a probationary exile; it was permanent. There was never any intention to let Khan and his followers join the Federation; that honor was only going to come to his descendants, and only possibly someday at that. The last meaning of "space seed" was to reference the pollination of Ceti Alpha VI as a permanent settlement, not as an essential part of the 23rd century, but in its own right, as might have happened eventually, if the ship had been left to its own devices and in accordance with the launchers' intentions. That was the chance that Kirk gave them, to make and follow their own destiny, but within the confines of that one world. It was a life sentence.

As for whether Khan really was superior, his superior ambition and his belief that he was meant to rule rendered him incompatible with natural humans. The potential he otherwise represented could never be tapped in civilized society, because he was always going to be a threat. In terms of the application of his potential, he offered nothing other than a system in which he was absolute ruler. He was therefore suited only to the type of exile he was sentenced to.

Also, a dictatorship is a form of totalitarianism, so it can't be claimed that Khan didn't represent totalitarianism because instead he represented dictatorship.
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Old December 5 2013, 09:17 AM   #803
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CC, I think the points you make above are valid (insofar as I was perhaps overselling Khan and his people as having the potential to integrate in the present), except for this:

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
Also, a dictatorship is a form of totalitarianism, so it can't be claimed that Khan didn't represent totalitarianism because instead he represented dictatorship.
... which is simply wrong. Dictatorship can be totalitarian; dictatorship is not "a form of totalitarianism." In much the same way that republics can be democratic, but republics are not "a form of democracy." (And we are told quite specifically that Khan in his tenure as a prince was no Stalin.)
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Old December 5 2013, 09:57 AM   #804
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
CC, I think the points you make above are valid (insofar as I was perhaps overselling Khan and his people as having the potential to integrate in the present), except for this:

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
Also, a dictatorship is a form of totalitarianism, so it can't be claimed that Khan didn't represent totalitarianism because instead he represented dictatorship.
... which is simply wrong. Dictatorship can be totalitarian; dictatorship is not "a form of totalitarianism." In much the same way that republics can be democratic, but republics are not "a form of democracy." (And we are told quite specifically that Khan in his tenure as a prince was no Stalin.)
Alright. I'll admit my poli-sci isn't always up to snuff.

However, if we buy into what's in the wiki, then it would seem unlikely to me that Khan would have opted for a non-totalitarian and therefore authoritarian dictatorship, because, for example, opting for a merely authoritarian regime would have led to a high level of corruption. His charisma is another indication that his regime was probably totalitarian.
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Old December 5 2013, 10:45 AM   #805
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
it would seem unlikely to me that Khan would have opted for a non-totalitarian and therefore authoritarian dictatorship, because, for example, opting for a merely authoritarian regime would have led to a high level of corruption.
I guess I just don't see any particular reason to try to speculatively get around what we're told in plain terms about Khan and his regime.
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Old December 5 2013, 10:50 AM   #806
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Coach Comet wrote: View Post
it would seem unlikely to me that Khan would have opted for a non-totalitarian and therefore authoritarian dictatorship, because, for example, opting for a merely authoritarian regime would have led to a high level of corruption.
I guess I just don't see any particular reason to try to speculatively get around what we're told in plain terms about Khan and his regime.
Which includes:

(A large picture of their guest in on a screen)
KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan's quarters, effective immediately.
What about that doesn't sound both totalitarian and dictatorial?
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Old December 5 2013, 10:53 AM   #807
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
What about that doesn't sound both totalitarian and dictatorial?
There's none of it that sounds necessarily totalitarian. Any of it could be equally said about hundreds of years' worth of reasonably competent monarchs.

Totalitarian means a system that makes a strong effort to control the minutiae of subjects' lives from the cradle to the grave. About the best that can be said is that the script kinda sorta doesn't entirely rule that possibility out... but it seems pretty clearly to me not to be the point of what it's telling us.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:03 AM   #808
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I'd say I was giving Spock's "And as little freedom" some weight. Spock's being the voice of reason, which is usually his function in stories, while the others are romanticizing about what they also squarely admit was tyrannical rule. Hence, they are overemphasizing its positive aspects.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:15 AM   #809
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I mean, he kills Pike. Orchestrates a terrorist bombing. Sure he's got a "reason" but it's hard to sympathize with that.
Now that you mention it, his teary explanation in the middle of the movie seems empty.
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Old December 5 2013, 03:54 PM   #810
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

^ Of course it is. Khan is manipulating his listeners; I doubt the tears were genuine. People like Khan simply don't have feelings like that. How could they? They're Augments - designed for ambition above all else.

And Spock's line about "As little freedom" is also very important. There may have been no massacres under Khan's rule, but in a society where everyone is in constant fear of their lives - maybe they HAVEN'T been massacred, but they COULD be, if they say, do, or even think the wrong thing - how relevant is that? There was no freedom of any kind under Augment rule, so therefore, the claim that there were no massacres (while, in itself, a good thing) would seem to ring a bit hollow.

People who think that Khan's such a great guy should read this.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
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^ But if Khan is so superior, how could he have allowed himself to be chafed? He should have used his so-called smarts to find a way to outsmart Marcus and get his "crew" to safety.
Well that's what he did, wasn't it? Granted it was a back and forth game between Marcus and Khan with the torpedoes:
Khans put his people in--Marcus tries to use them on Khan--Khan nearly gets them back.
Let me rephrase: Khan should never have allowed himself to get under Marcus' thumb in the first place. If he really was as superior as he liked to say, then he should have never allowed himself to be ruled over at all.


Coach Comet wrote: View Post
As for whether Khan really was superior, his superior ambition and his belief that he was meant to rule rendered him incompatible with natural humans. The potential he otherwise represented could never be tapped in civilized society, because he was always going to be a threat. In terms of the application of his potential, he offered nothing other than a system in which he was absolute ruler.
Indeed.

And thus it is impossible to actually advocate a system like Khan put forth, since wherever there is an absolute ruler, there can never (by definition) be any kind of freedom.
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