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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 4 2013, 11:43 PM   #781
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Would James T. Kirk still be the same person if the character was written the same way but played by an African-American actor?

BigJake wrote: View Post
How about if James T. Kirk was written completely differently and played by a British actor?
Yes and yes.
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Old December 5 2013, 12:05 AM   #782
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerGSB wrote:
To put it another way: Would James T. Kirk still be the same person if the character was written the same way but played by an African-American actor?
How about if James T. Kirk was written completely differently and played by a British actor? Which of course was what happened with Khan, right?

(Of course Kirk's character was actually written quite differently in Abrams' movies...)
See I don't see STID as being written different. Sure, he's different from Derpy Khan in TWOK, but he's right in line with Space Seed Khan in terms of personality and style. STID Khan is what Space Seed Khan would have been had he won at the end of the episode.
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Old December 5 2013, 12:14 AM   #783
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerGSB wrote:
To put it another way: Would James T. Kirk still be the same person if the character was written the same way but played by an African-American actor?
How about if James T. Kirk was written completely differently and played by a British actor? Which of course was what happened with Khan, right?

(Of course Kirk's character was actually written quite differently in Abrams' movies...)
See I don't see STID as being written different. Sure, he's different from Derpy Khan in TWOK, but he's right in line with Space Seed Khan in terms of personality and style. STID Khan is what Space Seed Khan would have been had he won at the end of the episode.
With TARDIS-casting services, I think Montalban could have played CumberKhan's role brilliantly. I'm imagining the "cold corpses, shall we begin" speech, rendered in the whispering style of the TWOK "buried alive" speech and punctuated by the craziness in "stab at thee." It's chilling. It would have been different in tone from what we got, but I think it could have been shocking nonetheless.
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Old December 5 2013, 01:47 AM   #784
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
t to Space Seed? Yes, a little.
Sorry, but Khan's ethnicity really wasn't important to the story or the character.

Hell I'm not seeing how he would be very different than the original idea where he was a Norwegian superman.

All you need is a charismatic brilliant megalomaniac who doesn't mind killing people to get what he wants, who ruled part of the world until being driven off into space.

To put it another way: Would James T. Kirk still be the same person if the character was written the same way but played by an African-American actor?
Maybe, although it might depend on the story. There would likely be some differences that would creep in.
I doubt there would be.
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Old December 5 2013, 02:07 AM   #785
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
different from Derpy Khan in TWOK . . . right in line with Space Seed Khan in terms of personality and style.
Wrong on both counts, for my money. The "Derpy Khan" business aside -- which I still think is a silly evaluation of that character but there's no accounting for taste -- Khan in TWOK is a mad Ahab-style version of Space Seed Khan, both of whom are foreign princes. Khan in STID lacks that element of the character completely. So convincingly arguing that they're written the same is pretty difficult.
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Old December 5 2013, 02:18 AM   #786
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Eh, Starfleet has a United Earth, no country is supposed to be dominant. So, where does this idea of "Foreign Prince" come from, unless the Foreign Prince is from another Planet?
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Old December 5 2013, 02:22 AM   #787
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Foreign and exotic to the culture most of the characters come from. In a practical sense Starfleet of course plays as Americans in space (yes, they have Chekov and Scotty and blah blah blah -- they're still Americans in space). Within the story he is of course, perhaps just as importantly, from an exotic time centuries gone. Space Seed is about his inability to adjust to the modern world.
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Old December 5 2013, 04:07 AM   #788
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ryan8bit wrote:
Khan was meant to be a villain that you sympathize with in the beginning of the story
Well, sort of.

I mean, he kills Pike. Orchestrates a terrorist bombing. Sure he's got a "reason" but it's hard to sympathize with that.
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Old December 5 2013, 04:47 AM   #789
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
All you need is a charismatic brilliant megalomaniac who doesn't mind killing people to get what he wants, who ruled part of the world until being driven off into space.
It also helped that he was exotic, hence part of his race. You're right in that it could've been Norwegian as long as there was that same allure. But if what was just plain American white guy, no it wouldn't have been the same. That's the extent that race mattered, which is not much.

To put it another way: Would James T. Kirk still be the same person if the character was written the same way but played by an African-American actor?
Maybe, although it might depend on the story. There would likely be some differences that would creep in.
I doubt there would be.
Any character that's not a straight, white, male is often going to have their differences highlighted. There's no way that he would be written the same.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:20 AM   #790
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Foreign and exotic to the culture most of the characters come from. In a practical sense Starfleet of course plays as Americans in space (yes, they have Chekov and Scotty and blah blah blah -- they're still Americans in space). Within the story he is of course, perhaps just as importantly, from an exotic time centuries gone. Space Seed is about his inability to adjust to the modern world.
An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism. He's not foreign and exotic to them, but primitive and brutal. An artifact from primitive and brutal time. I don't think Khan was having any trouble with the modern world. As he says in "Space Seed"

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century, Captain.
He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.

The Khan we see in STID is closer to the one we see in Space Seed. He is ruthless and brutal when needed, but also intelligent. He's not the scenery chewing, easily tricked Ahab we see in TWOK.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:34 AM   #791
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Foreign and exotic to the culture most of the characters come from. In a practical sense Starfleet of course plays as Americans in space (yes, they have Chekov and Scotty and blah blah blah -- they're still Americans in space). Within the story he is of course, perhaps just as importantly, from an exotic time centuries gone. Space Seed is about his inability to adjust to the modern world.
An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism. He's not foreign and exotic to them, but primitive and brutal. An artifact from primitive and brutal time. I don't think Khan was having any trouble with the modern world. As he says in "Space Seed"

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century, Captain.
He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.

The Khan we see in STID is closer to the one we see in Space Seed. He is ruthless and brutal when needed, but also intelligent. He's not the scenery chewing, easily tricked Ahab we see in TWOK.
Take the Khan from Space Seed and put him under the boot of a "inferior" man for a year, and you get STID Khan.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:47 AM   #792
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Foreign and exotic to the culture most of the characters come from. In a practical sense Starfleet of course plays as Americans in space (yes, they have Chekov and Scotty and blah blah blah -- they're still Americans in space). Within the story he is of course, perhaps just as importantly, from an exotic time centuries gone. Space Seed is about his inability to adjust to the modern world.
An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism. He's not foreign and exotic to them, but primitive and brutal. An artifact from primitive and brutal time. I don't think Khan was having any trouble with the modern world. As he says in "Space Seed"

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century, Captain.
He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.

The Khan we see in STID is closer to the one we see in Space Seed. He is ruthless and brutal when needed, but also intelligent. He's not the scenery chewing, easily tricked Ahab we see in TWOK.
Take the Khan from Space Seed and put him under the boot of a "inferior" man for a year, and you get STID Khan.
Plus don't forget to add having a better understanding of Starfleet tach which actually makes him more dangerous and likely added to his being more ruthless this time around.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:50 AM   #793
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Foreign and exotic to the culture most of the characters come from. In a practical sense Starfleet of course plays as Americans in space (yes, they have Chekov and Scotty and blah blah blah -- they're still Americans in space). Within the story he is of course, perhaps just as importantly, from an exotic time centuries gone. Space Seed is about his inability to adjust to the modern world.
An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism. He's not foreign and exotic to them, but primitive and brutal. An artifact from primitive and brutal time. I don't think Khan was having any trouble with the modern world. As he says in "Space Seed"

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century, Captain.
He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.

The Khan we see in STID is closer to the one we see in Space Seed. He is ruthless and brutal when needed, but also intelligent. He's not the scenery chewing, easily tricked Ahab we see in TWOK.
Take the Khan from Space Seed and put him under the boot of a "inferior" man for a year, and you get STID Khan.
Maybe, maybe not. According to Orci and co, that's what you get.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:53 AM   #794
SeerSGB
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism. He's not foreign and exotic to them, but primitive and brutal. An artifact from primitive and brutal time. I don't think Khan was having any trouble with the modern world. As he says in "Space Seed"

He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.

The Khan we see in STID is closer to the one we see in Space Seed. He is ruthless and brutal when needed, but also intelligent. He's not the scenery chewing, easily tricked Ahab we see in TWOK.
Take the Khan from Space Seed and put him under the boot of a "inferior" man for a year, and you get STID Khan.
Plus don't forget to add having a better understanding of Starfleet tach which actually makes him more dangerous and likely added to his being more ruthless this time around.
As well as a lot more time to get up to speed and plan. Versus a few days--tops--that he had in Space Seed.
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Old December 5 2013, 06:12 AM   #795
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Agenda wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
An interesting interpretation, but I don't see it. Khan and his brethren represent Totalitarians with a healthy dose of Nazism/Fascism. He's not foreign and exotic to them, but primitive and brutal. An artifact from primitive and brutal time. I don't think Khan was having any trouble with the modern world. As he says in "Space Seed"

He isn't done in by the modern world but by Marla's shifting loyalties.

The Khan we see in STID is closer to the one we see in Space Seed. He is ruthless and brutal when needed, but also intelligent. He's not the scenery chewing, easily tricked Ahab we see in TWOK.
Take the Khan from Space Seed and put him under the boot of a "inferior" man for a year, and you get STID Khan.
Maybe, maybe not. According to Orci and co, that's what you get.
Odd comment. Sort of like reading the statement "take the Khan from Space Seed and put him on a hellhole of a world for 15 years, and you get TWOK Khan" and then responding Maybe, maybe not. According to Bennett and co, that's what you get.
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