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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 2 2013, 10:37 PM   #751
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I'm still trying to figure out why whether he's Sikh or not is even important to any of the three Khan stories? Forget contunity/canon (which Trek has often done), is there a critical or needed story element related to his being Sikh?

Here's a question too: Could the studio have put uneasy casting a person of Middle Eastern heritage as a terrorist--especially one that was blowing up buildings in a major city?
—not to mention as a person to be targeted by a drone strike and executed without trial.
The above works under the assumption that the "Powers That Be" were working with some thought as to how their movie would be viewed by the public. No one here who dislikes Abrams and Company would ever admit that.

Dammit! I want a light-skinned Mexican actor wearing shoe polish on his face to play an Indian dictator! I will settle for nothing less!
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Old December 2 2013, 10:48 PM   #752
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I'm still trying to figure out why whether he's Sikh or not is even important to any of the three Khan stories? Forget contunity/canon (which Trek has often done), is there a critical or needed story element related to his being Sikh?

Here's a question too: Could the studio have put uneasy casting a person of Middle Eastern heritage as a terrorist--especially one that was blowing up buildings in a major city?
—not to mention as a person to be targeted by a drone strike and executed without trial.
Yeeeup. I think all of that might make a studio's PR team a bit twitchy.

I'd love to see the memos and studio notes on this movie.
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Old December 3 2013, 02:12 AM   #753
Nerys Myk
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
No one doubted Khan Noonien Singh was a Sikh from India for decades, until some dudes messed it up.
Yeah, how dare Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer screw this up.
Except for they didn't. Nothing in TWOK violates that part of Space Seed, since Khan's origin is never of any interest to the story, and it's still the same actor. Continuity is intact there. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Why is Khan no Sikh anymore?" or "Why did they whitewash Khan?"
I have to wonder how many people watching TWOK knew what a Sikh was in the first place or recalled Khan was called a Sikh in "Space Seed"? For that matter, I wonder how many people watching Space Seed in the 60s and 70s knew what a Sikh was?

The fact remains that the creators of "Space Seed" didn't really care what a Sikh was or make any real attempt to make Khan/Montalban into one. They just named dropped "Sikh" because someone heard they were Indian "warriors" and they wanted Khan to be from South Asia. By the time of TWOK, Khan Noonian Singh is only called "Khan." There is no "pretense" of him being an Indian or a Sikh, he's just Khan.
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Old December 3 2013, 02:19 AM   #754
Set Harth
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Sindatur wrote:
Why is a light skinned Mexican Guy, born to Spanish parents, so much more believable as a Sikh or an Indian than a light skinned British Guy?
Well, Khan is supposed to be exotic and foreign. Obviously it's not nearly complex or thoughtful enough for today's zeitgeist, but this was the 60s. From the white-centric POV of a predominantly white culture, you get the exotic factor by casting someone who is not white. Montalban qualifies despite naturally light skin coloration because as a Spaniard he's still "other than white" in the sense that Hispanic and (non-Hispanic) white are used as separate classifications. In other words being Hispanic is just different enough to be considered foreign by traditional WASP-centric standards. When it comes to the original Khan character, there was quite obviously no shortage of white guys on hand who could have played the part if they hadn't wanted him to be presented as a foreign prince. But now he's Whitey McWhiterson. That's why there's some dissonance.
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Old December 3 2013, 04:19 AM   #755
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cumberbatch is British. That's foreign for me.
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Old December 3 2013, 04:34 AM   #756
Nerys Myk
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is British. That's foreign for me.
You're Italian, that makes you "exotic" in America.

The iguana_tonante Story starring Ricardo Montalban
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Old December 3 2013, 04:38 AM   #757
Sindatur
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote:
Why is a light skinned Mexican Guy, born to Spanish parents, so much more believable as a Sikh or an Indian than a light skinned British Guy?
Well, Khan is supposed to be exotic and foreign. Obviously it's not nearly complex or thoughtful enough for today's zeitgeist, but this was the 60s. From the white-centric POV of a predominantly white culture, you get the exotic factor by casting someone who is not white. Montalban qualifies despite naturally light skin coloration because as a Spaniard he's still "other than white" in the sense that Hispanic and (non-Hispanic) white are used as separate classifications. In other words being Hispanic is just different enough to be considered foreign by traditional WASP-centric standards. When it comes to the original Khan character, there was quite obviously no shortage of white guys on hand who could have played the part if they hadn't wanted him to be presented as a foreign prince. But now he's Whitey McWhiterson. That's why there's some dissonance.
Are you certain? I could swear Spaniards are not classed as Hispanics (That would be South Americans), Spaniards, I could swear are classed as Caucasians/White (If I remember correctly, you call an Italian or a Spaniard Hispanic and you end up with the same offense as when you call an Austrian German, which can come to blows?) Montalban would only be Hispanic by Country of Birth, not by Genetic Ethnicity, no?

At any rate, Montalban's Accent is further away from Indian than a British Accent is.

Also, Star Trek is an American Series and American Movie Series, therefore, A Brit is a Foreigner
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Old December 3 2013, 05:02 AM   #758
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Any Hispanic with European ancestry can white. IIRC, the U.S. Census Bureau calls any one from Spain or Latin America a "Hispanic". As of 2010, 50.5 million or 16.3% of Americans were ethnically Hispanic or Latino.[15] Of those, 26.7 million, or 53%, were White.
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Old December 3 2013, 07:07 AM   #759
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is British. That's foreign for me.
You're Italian, that makes you "exotic" in America.

The iguana_tonante Story starring Ricardo Montalban
Or... we could have iguana look at the camera and read this.

[screen test script consists of a single line: "My name is Khan."]
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Old December 3 2013, 09:14 AM   #760
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

They should have made Khan a Sikh woman. Yeh!
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Old December 3 2013, 11:07 AM   #761
Belz...
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote:
What's an ethnic Sikh ? It's not an ethnicity.
If you don't like the term "ethnic Sikh" then I suppose we should come up with a different collection of letters to convey a similar idea.
You're not listening: it's NOT an ethnicity.
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Old December 3 2013, 12:14 PM   #762
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is British. That's foreign for me.
You're Italian, that makes you "exotic" in America.

The iguana_tonante Story starring Ricardo Montalban
Or... we could have iguana look at the camera and read this.

[screen test script consists of a single line: "My name is Khan."]
“It's a me, Khan!“
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Old December 3 2013, 12:27 PM   #763
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Good thing I have a princess in every castle, then. Some are even "ethnic Sikh". I recognize them because they wear a fake tan.


Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is British. That's foreign for me.
You're Italian, that makes you "exotic" in America.

The iguana_tonante Story starring Ricardo Montalban
My part would be played by Alan Rickman. Oh no, he's British! Canon violation!!!


Sindatur wrote: View Post
(If I remember correctly, you call an Italian or a Spaniard Hispanic and you end up with the same offense as when you call an Austrian German, which can come to blows?)
Actually, you would just get a few puzzled looks in Italy. The only times "hispanic" is used in Italian, is when talking about the ancient Roman province of Hispania.
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Old December 3 2013, 04:00 PM   #764
Set Harth
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote:
What's an ethnic Sikh ? It's not an ethnicity.
If you don't like the term "ethnic Sikh" then I suppose we should come up with a different collection of letters to convey a similar idea.
You're not listening: it's NOT an ethnicity.
Again, if you don't have to be a follower of the Sikh religion to be considered a Sikh, then it's not just a religion. So come up with a different collection of letters to describe this phenomenon, if the term "ethnic" is unacceptable to you ( though it's accepted by at least some Sikhs ).
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Old December 3 2013, 05:14 PM   #765
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch has similar facial features, black hair, and white skin, and clean shaven.
Cumberbatch's facial features are actually pretty wildly different. His hair isn't really black either, he's just a pasty ginger.

But none of that really matters. They changed the character in both looks and personality and people should just accept that.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
is getting the race of the character correct more paramount than getting the best performance regardless of race?
Only if the race is actually important to the character. As written in STID, it was not (even being Khan wasn't really important). That said, I still don't like the implications of that.
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