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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 2 2013, 12:36 PM   #736
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I wonder if people would be complaining if Khanberbatch were seen wearing his snazzy gold jacket from "Space Seed"? The guy was being used and manipulated in ID, he was never really in a position to dress as he'd have liked. First he was seen under his John Harrison persona in London, then dressed for the harsh weather on Kronos, and finally a Starfleet uniform.
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Old December 2 2013, 01:33 PM   #737
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

As I've said, I would've preferred that they'd cast an actor who resembles Ricardo Montalban, but it is not really that big a deal since it's easy for me to imagine they look alike as they should. I don't think people who complain about the character's whitewashing are really all that concerned with continuity in the same way that we are. Besides, it's not like Benedict Cumberbutch's appearance was the movie's biggest flaw...
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Old December 2 2013, 02:02 PM   #738
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I wanted a good actor playing Khan and Cumberbatch fit the bill. Anyone can come up with ways to address the discrepancy in appearance in their own mind. Which for me, is the absolute best way Abrams and Company could handle it in the film.

As far as casting Cumberbatch vs. a dark skinned actor, I think that there may have been some concerns about casting a dark-skinned person as a terrorist.
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Old December 2 2013, 02:12 PM   #739
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Pasi Nurminen wrote: View Post
As I've said, I would've preferred that they'd cast an actor who resembles Ricardo Montalban, but it is not really that big a deal since it's easy for me to imagine they look alike as they should. I don't think people who complain about the character's whitewashing are really all that concerned with continuity in the same way that we are. Besides, it's not like Benedict Cumberbutch's appearance was the movie's biggest flaw...
It would have been their chance to actually cast an Indian actor.
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Old December 2 2013, 03:23 PM   #740
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote:
What's an ethnic Sikh ? It's not an ethnicity.
If you don't like the term "ethnic Sikh" then I suppose we should come up with a different collection of letters to convey a similar idea. But as has been said here, one can be a child of a Sikh family who chooses not to follow the religion, yet that person is still called a Sikh for some reason. Certain Sikhs see their group as having a racial identity, not just a religious one, and this does not appear to be something invented by journalists.

BillJ wrote:
I think that there may have been some concerns about casting a dark-skinned person as a terrorist.
I agree. But what, if anything, is gained by this? In movie-land, must all terrorists be Caucasian?
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Old December 2 2013, 04:39 PM   #741
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Pasi Nurminen wrote: View Post
We should simply say that Khan is Sikh, but is not practicing, or that he is but is not particularly committed to his religion. Many Sikhs, especially those who are part of the Sikh diaspora in the West, don't obey the Kesh for a variety of reasons, and Khan could simply be one of those. To get hung up on his lack of facial hair or a turban is to be rather pedantic in defending the decision to cast Benedict Cumberbatch in the role, when they should have made at least some minimal effort to cast an actor who resembled Ricardo Montalban, considering that, as others have pointed out, the two Khans are the same person.

It is all a problem resulting from this whole parallel timeline nonsense. Though I was opposed to the idea of "rebooting" Star Trek in the first place, they should have simply gone for a full reboot instead of half-assing it the way they have. Abrams, Orci, and the rest can't say they were concerned about the fans taking issue with the idea of a full reboot as since they took over control of the franchise they've made perfectly their disdain for those fans who would care about such a thing.
How much more effort should have been put into casting a Montalban look-alike? Cumberbatch has similar facial features, black hair, and white skin, and clean shaven. Are you suggesting he should have been given makeup to darken his skin as was done with Montalban in Space Seed, but, not in WoK?

And why, if the complaint is about being Indian or Sikh, would they possibly want Khan to have a thick Latin Accent?

Why is a light skinned Mexican Guy, born to Spanish parents, so much more believable as a Sikh or an Indian than a light skinned British Guy? The British have a long history with India, it is way, way more believable for a British guy to be an Indian then it is for a Mexican guy (especially with a thick Latin Accent). Mexico and Spain don't have anywhere near the relationship/history with India that Britain does.
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Old December 2 2013, 05:14 PM   #742
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Pasi Nurminen wrote: View Post
As I've said, I would've preferred that they'd cast an actor who resembles Ricardo Montalban, but it is not really that big a deal since it's easy for me to imagine they look alike as they should. I don't think people who complain about the character's whitewashing are really all that concerned with continuity in the same way that we are. Besides, it's not like Benedict Cumberbutch's appearance was the movie's biggest flaw...
It would have been their chance to actually cast an Indian actor.
And what if an Indian actor wasn't the right performer for the character? Not saying there aren't some good to great Indian actors, my point is: is getting the race of the character correct more paramount than getting the best performance regardless of race?

I think Cumberbatch did just fine with Khan. At least on par with Montalban's egotistical Khan from Space Seed and not as scene chewing as Montalban's TWOK Khan.
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Old December 2 2013, 06:37 PM   #743
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
No one doubted Khan Noonien Singh was a Sikh from India for decades, until some dudes messed it up.
Yeah, how dare Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer screw this up.
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Old December 2 2013, 08:46 PM   #744
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
No one doubted Khan Noonien Singh was a Sikh from India for decades, until some dudes messed it up.
Yeah, how dare Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer screw this up.
Except for they didn't. Nothing in TWOK violates that part of Space Seed, since Khan's origin is never of any interest to the story, and it's still the same actor. Continuity is intact there. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Why is Khan no Sikh anymore?" or "Why did they whitewash Khan?"
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Old December 2 2013, 09:43 PM   #745
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Except for they didn't. Nothing in TWOK violates that part of Space Seed, since Khan's origin is never of any interest to the story, and it's still the same actor. Continuity is intact there. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Why is Khan no Sikh anymore?" or "Why did they whitewash Khan?"
We have no verifiable evidence that Khan was a Sikh. We have one historian who was obviously really shitty at her job claiming he was a Sikh. At first sight.
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Old December 2 2013, 10:15 PM   #746
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Except for they didn't. Nothing in TWOK violates that part of Space Seed, since Khan's origin is never of any interest to the story, and it's still the same actor. Continuity is intact there. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Why is Khan no Sikh anymore?" or "Why did they whitewash Khan?"
We have no verifiable evidence that Khan was a Sikh. We have one historian who was obviously really shitty at her job claiming he was a Sikh. At first sight.
The exact line was "Probably a Sikh." Even if Marla is 100% competent at her job in-universe, that's still no confirmation. She was only making an educated guess, in-universe.
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Old December 2 2013, 10:25 PM   #747
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I'm still trying to figure out why whether he's Sikh or not is even important to any of the three Khan stories? Forget contunity/canon (which Trek has often done), is there a critical or needed story element related to his being Sikh?

Here's a question too: Could the studio have put uneasy casting a person of Middle Eastern heritage as a terrorist--especially one that was blowing up buildings in a major city?
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Old December 2 2013, 10:25 PM   #748
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
No one doubted Khan Noonien Singh was a Sikh from India for decades, until some dudes messed it up.
Yeah, how dare Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer screw this up.
Except for they didn't. Nothing in TWOK violates that part of Space Seed, since Khan's origin is never of any interest to the story, and it's still the same actor. Continuity is intact there. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Why is Khan no Sikh anymore?" or "Why did they whitewash Khan?"
Without home video and the comparison shots that come so easily today, most probably never even realized they brown faced him in SS. They recognized the actor and vaguely remembered the old episode. If it were released today, Wrath of Khan would have been reamed (moreso than it was back then in Trek and Interstat)
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Old December 2 2013, 10:31 PM   #749
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

The exact line was "Probably a Sikh." Even if Marla is 100% competent at her job in-universe, that's still no confirmation. She was only making an educated guess, in-universe.
I was more talking about why many here hang their hats on him being a Sikh.
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Old December 2 2013, 10:32 PM   #750
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I'm still trying to figure out why whether he's Sikh or not is even important to any of the three Khan stories? Forget contunity/canon (which Trek has often done), is there a critical or needed story element related to his being Sikh?

Here's a question too: Could the studio have put uneasy casting a person of Middle Eastern heritage as a terrorist--especially one that was blowing up buildings in a major city?
—not to mention as a person to be targeted by a drone strike and executed without trial.
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