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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 1 2013, 06:26 PM   #61
Opus
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

<crickets>
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Old November 1 2013, 06:40 PM   #62
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
By that logic, there's nothing to suggest Kirk had sex with the twins in ID - after all, we only saw them in bed together, in their underwear! We didn't even see them kiss!
If you have any evidence from the episode that would clearly indicate that Lenore and Kirk had sex, I'll gladly take it into account. But since this is "hollywood", all characters can have sex in their underwear.
Your needing something to "clearly indicate" 60's implied sex while using "hollywood" as an excuse for the clothed implied sex in ID is a joke.
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Old November 1 2013, 06:45 PM   #63
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
You said there was no payoff for a scene from the beginning of the film, I've countered that there is.
If you're going to insist that moment was meant to show how different these two characters are, then the pay off already happened the moment Kirk decided to rescue Spock. That's it. That's not a journey, that's a detail. A journey would be if Spock really did adhere to rules and regulations so much that it did interfere with his personal life and relationship with the crew. If he was actually put in a situation where he had to violate some code or do something "highly illogical" in order to save Kirk and actually do it, that would be a journey. But that's not what get in Star Trek Into Darkness.
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Old November 1 2013, 06:47 PM   #64
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Your needing something to "clearly indicate" 60's implied sex while using "hollywood" as an excuse for the clothed implied sex in ID is a joke.
It's not a joke. It's a rule.
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Old November 1 2013, 07:26 PM   #65
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Your needing something to "clearly indicate" 60's implied sex while using "hollywood" as an excuse for the clothed implied sex in ID is a joke.
It's not a joke. It's a rule.
So 2010's implied sex is sex, but 1960's implied sex isn't. Glad we've cleared that up.
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Old November 1 2013, 07:34 PM   #66
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
But that's not what I get in Star Trek Into Darkness.
FIFY

That's not what YOU get in STiD. Others get it. You don't.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So 2010's implied sex is sex, but 1960's implied sex isn't. Glad we've cleared that up.
Yeah, clear as fucking mud.
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Old November 1 2013, 07:58 PM   #67
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Of course there is the fact that Kirk is shown in bed together with the "Caitian" twins, which is a pretty long-standing and well-known movie shorthand for "they totally got it on" and which in fact doesn't have any parallel in "Conscience of the King" (if I have that episode title right). So there's that.

I personally don't care hugely for the Kirk-as-fratboy-horndog theme either, though to his credit Pine sells it beautifully. TOS Kirk mainly used seduction as a means to an end, because Team Bad Guy would often conveniently have a comely and weak-willed woman on the roster who could be manipulated. It was a corny, sexist plot device -- and a pretty standard Sixties Action Hero trope when you think about it, James Bond mostly did the same thing -- but it was pretty clearly different from his just being a constantly DTF pick-up-artist.

(OTOH in all fairness, I can see why Abrams and Co. went the way they did on this one: it was a way of nodding to the character's rep without actually having to include Kirk-Takes-Another-One-For-The-Team in the main plot, which would have been far worse, and it pointed up the difference between Alternate Universe Kirk and Prime Universe Kirk. So I wouldn't call it a particularly major Abramstrek sin.)
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Old November 1 2013, 08:01 PM   #68
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
I personally don't care hugely for the Kirk-as-fratboy-horndog theme either, though to his credit Pine sells it beautifully. TOS Kirk mainly used seduction as a means to an end, because Team Bad Guy would often conveniently have a comely and weak-willed woman on the roster who could be manipulated. It was a corny, sexist plot device -- and a pretty standard Sixties Action Hero trope when you think about it, James Bond mostly did the same thing -- but it was pretty clearly different from his just being a constantly DTF pick-up-artist.
No.
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Old November 1 2013, 08:02 PM   #69
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

He could just have been testing their nightsight while comparing their respective anatomies.

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Old November 1 2013, 08:03 PM   #70
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
I personally don't care hugely for the Kirk-as-fratboy-horndog theme either, though to his credit Pine sells it beautifully. TOS Kirk mainly used seduction as a means to an end, because Team Bad Guy would often conveniently have a comely and weak-willed woman on the roster who could be manipulated. It was a corny, sexist plot device -- and a pretty standard Sixties Action Hero trope when you think about it, James Bond mostly did the same thing -- but it was pretty clearly different from his just being a constantly DTF pick-up-artist.
No.
Um... yes.
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Old November 1 2013, 08:07 PM   #71
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Chrysalis wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Chrysalis wrote: View Post
On the other hand I will agree slightly on Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof being at fault for that scene.

Bald Caitians, still not happy about that.

*eye twitch*
Hey now...

Maybe Kirk is a man that likes shaved...uh "Caitians". Not every guy likes a fury Caitian.
Sustaining a brazilian to over 80% of your body would be time consuming at least
They're twins. One shaves the other. Team work!!!!
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Old November 1 2013, 08:15 PM   #72
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

TOS was never like this...

... I like where this is going...
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Old November 1 2013, 08:53 PM   #73
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
I personally don't care hugely for the Kirk-as-fratboy-horndog theme either, though to his credit Pine sells it beautifully. TOS Kirk mainly used seduction as a means to an end, because Team Bad Guy would often conveniently have a comely and weak-willed woman on the roster who could be manipulated. It was a corny, sexist plot device -- and a pretty standard Sixties Action Hero trope when you think about it, James Bond mostly did the same thing -- but it was pretty clearly different from his just being a constantly DTF pick-up-artist.
No.
Um... yes.
Nope. This whole trope is something completely made up by people seeking a needless and unwarranted justification for sex.

Since you brought up the Bond comparison, let's look at 60s bond:

Miss Taro? He picked her up because she was hot. Then she double crossed him.

Honey Ryder? She was really just in his way. Had Bond really been cold and calculating he would have eliminated her. But he is the good guy, and she was gorgeous. So, when it was all over, he shagged her.

Sylvia Trench? She was Bond's on-again, off-again girlfriend. Basically a friend with benefits.

Tatiana Romanova? In the beginning she was the objective. But he started to like her. He could have left her at anytime after making contact with Grant. But he didn't Why? He wanted to shag her.

The Masterson sisters? Jill was his foil, but her interference was ultimately irreverent to Bond's objective. She was just hot. So he seduced her and shagged her. He was already trying to pick-up Tilly before he even knew who she was.

Pussy Galore? Admittedly, her help did come in handy. But to you really think Bond was thinking about that or just wanted to shag her because her name was freaking Pussy Galore? "I mush be dreaming..." Duh!

Molly Peters? Just a shagging of convergence.

Domino? Like Ryder, more of an annoyance ... and hot.

Kissy Suzuki? They were playing house, and Bond totally took advantage of the situation.

Tracy? The one woman in all the world he actually made love to. Doesn't really count.

And the girls in Blofeld's little army were so smitten with Bond they would have told him anything. The dorm dance he does was just for fun.

See? Myth.

I guarantee you can go episode by episode, girl by girl and get the same results for Kirk.

Fleming and Roddenberry shared a certain "admiration" for the fairer sex. And so did their characters.
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Old November 1 2013, 09:07 PM   #74
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Opus wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
There was a payoff: It is part of Spock's journey. It is used to make Spock understand how Kirk saw him, how important Kirk thought he was.
Kirk: I wanted you to know why I couldn't let you die. Why I went back for you. (referencing opening scene of the movie, and later scene before the command meeting)

Spock: Because you are my friend. (Aha! Spock finally gets it!)

<hands press against glass>

That's the payoff.

I simply don't understand how one could miss this.
Most of them were to busy during that scene.

Dramatic Recreation >>
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Old November 1 2013, 09:57 PM   #75
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Nope. This whole trope is something completely made up by people seeking a needless and unwarranted justification for sex.
Now this is a bit more interesting. Although I think your above statement is completely false, I have to admit

Since you brought up the Bond comparison, let's look at 60s bond [review snipped]
You make a very good case that the Bond comparison isn't a good one, and I happily concede. However:

I guarantee you can go episode by episode, girl by girl and get the same results for Kirk.
I'm pretty sure this is completely wrong. My recollection accords with what Archive of Our Own has to say:

Archive of Our Own wrote:
Kirk does appreciate women, but most of Kirk's seductions are intended to accomplish a mission-related goal, such as to distract the woman, to secure her help, to gain more information about the situation, and so on. For example, he kisses Andrea in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" to try to confuse her and to gain her loyalty. He flirts with Miri in the episode of the same name in order to soothe her fears and to get her on their side. He kisses Sylvia in "Catspaw" to try to get information out of her. He kisses Marlena in "Mirror, Mirror" partly to maintain his cover and partly to gain her as an ally. Kelinda in "By Any Other Name," Shahana in "Gamesters of Triskelion" ... the list of women Kirk seduces in order to further non-sexual ends goes on and on. It's clear that Kirk's sexuality is a weapon as potent as his phaser . . . But using his charisma for instrumental purposes is very different from being totally driven by his sexuality.
Now, I haven't quite gone episode by episode (maybe someone has? if it's happened anywhere it would have to be here), but I'm pretty sure that doing so would confirm the above picture.
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