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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 30 2013, 07:45 PM   #691
M'Sharak
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
The fact that it's still being argued, this far on, whether or not Star Trek has been rebooted points up that the term "reboot" has come to have so many different definitions for so many different people that it's become effectively meaningless as a one-word description of anything, and should henceforth be dropped from the working vocabulary. Srsly. Get rid of it.
The fact that it's being argued means one side of the argument should stop using the word ? That makes no sense to me. In fact, it's the exact opposite. If it's being debated, then both sides will argue the term. What other term would you suggest ?
I don't believe I said that one side should stop using a word.

What I meant was that the question of reboot/not reboot is no closer to being settled now than it was five and a half years ago, largely due to the fact that people can't even agree in the first place on the meaning of the term "reboot". It has come to have too many incompatible definitions—even within the context of science fiction movie franchises—rendering it pretty well useless as a label for anything.

As to what term ought to be used instead, I have no preference, but whatever term is chosen ought to have the same meaning to all parties participating in the conversation. Without that, all you've got is an "Is too!"/"Is not!" argument which never, ever goes anywhere.

[insert 'Argument Clinic' macro here]

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Yes, there have been some who looked upon all of that as pandering but, even among those who weren't so happy with the movies we got, there hasn't been what any reasonable person would describe as a high incidence of fan rage. Were those fan-rage suppression tactics? Rather successful ones, if so.
I don't know, Facebook seems to be jam-packed with over-the-top levels of fanrage. Just look at the dozens of ignorant cries of "Khan is a Sikh!" whenever Startrek.com posts a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch to hype the latest issue of the Khan prequel comic.
Check out most of the nasty comments about STID on the Facebook page of Star Trek: Phase II as well.

I've seen a few of those, but generally I don't pay a great deal of attention to fandom comments on Facebook or fan news sites. I have an idea that whatever rage and venom may be found therein is not statistically very significant, being representative of the opinions of a microscopically tiny (and extremely energetic) fraction of the total body of Trek fans. No matter which way the movies are done there will always be some who feel compelled to try to shout them down, but I certainly can't be bothered to read all of the hyperbolic drivel they post. It's just a movie, after all - not really something to get angry about.
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Old December 1 2013, 12:59 AM   #692
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set, love that Khan pic.

Star Trek: Phase II is surely the kind of production that selects for fans who prefer TOS Trek, many of whom may not particularly care for nuTrek. That should not be any kind of shock.

(And Daniel, as for the supposedly "ignorant" cries of "Khan is a Sikh!", the racial stuff is a distraction. The real core of the complaint, and it's a valid one, is that Khan originated as a character with a distinctive background and "feel" to him that is not present in the nuTrek version. If you prefer the nuTrek version that's your biz, but the difference is very real and usual tactic trotted out to obscure that difference -- "but Ricardo Montalban was white and his TOS costume wasn't technically Sikh, aha!" -- is not as impressive as some people apparently imagine it to be.)
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Old December 1 2013, 01:15 AM   #693
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Check out most of the nasty comments about STID on the Facebook page of Star Trek: Phase II as well.
Why?

I tend to hang out in places where fan acceptance of new ideas is more... IDIC.

So ironic, because the "Phase II" fanfilm team copped their own version of such bile when they started up.
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Old December 1 2013, 01:21 AM   #694
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Set, love that Khan pic.

Star Trek: Phase II is surely the kind of production that selects for fans who prefer TOS Trek, many of whom may not particularly care for nuTrek. That should not be any kind of shock.

(And Daniel, as for the supposedly "ignorant" cries of "Khan is a Sikh!", the racial stuff is a distraction. The real core of the complaint, and it's a valid one, is that Khan originated as a character with a distinctive background and "feel" to him that is not present in the nuTrek version. If you prefer the nuTrek version that's your biz, but the difference is very real and usual tactic trotted out to obscure that difference -- "but Ricardo Montalban was white and his TOS costume wasn't technically Sikh, aha!" -- is not as impressive as some people apparently imagine it to be.)
*Sigh*

Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed" because he violated two of the most basic tennants of Sikhism. He was clean shaven and at no point did he don a turban. This is not a "technicality" it's the foundation of the religion. Google it if you don't believe me. The claim he's a Sikh comes from Marla - who somehow pegs him as a Sikh on-sight which makes no sense whatsoever (and destroys the "he just wasn't a good Sikh" counter I keep hearing)

Furthermore, the TOS writers were actually warned that Sikhs don't trim or remove any body hair and for some reason chose to ignore it.

So, in short, yes it is ignorance that leads fans to parrott Marla's line. Of course he's changed with the recasting and I'm fine with people disliking that, but no version of Khan was ever a Sikh.
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Old December 1 2013, 02:18 AM   #695
Set Harth
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
*Sigh*

Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed"
*Sigh*

An ethnic Sikh, not a practicing Sikh. And it's not the first time this distinction has been explained. Not to mention that the Khan comic has him wearing a turban.
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Old December 1 2013, 03:41 AM   #696
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
*Sigh*

Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed"
*Sigh*

An ethnic Sikh, not a practicing Sikh. And it's not the first time this distinction has been explained. Not to mention that the Khan comic has him wearing a turban.
But how would McGivers know at first site?
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Old December 1 2013, 04:14 AM   #697
Nerys Myk
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
*Sigh*

Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed"
*Sigh*

An ethnic Sikh, not a practicing Sikh. And it's not the first time this distinction has been explained. Not to mention that the Khan comic has him wearing a turban.
How does one identify an "ethnic" Sikh on sight? Especially with out any of the outward signs of Sikhism?
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Old December 1 2013, 04:28 AM   #698
Pasi Nurminen
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
*Sigh*

Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed"
*Sigh*

An ethnic Sikh, not a practicing Sikh. And it's not the first time this distinction has been explained. Not to mention that the Khan comic has him wearing a turban.
There is no such thing as an ethnic Sikh. Sikhism is a religion, and a Sikh is a follower of the religion. Most Sikhs are ethnically Punjabi, but not all Punjabi persons are Sikh.
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Old December 1 2013, 07:50 AM   #699
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Pine's approach (to just create his own version of the character instead of trying to replicate Shatner) was the right one.
Agreed. I seen a movie review where it was observed that Pine manages to embody the character of Captain Kirk without falling into the trap of going anywhere near imitating William Shatner. It's a fine (some might have said impossible) line, but Pine really does just about pull it off with ease.
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Old December 1 2013, 11:23 AM   #700
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
*Sigh*

Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed"
*Sigh*

An ethnic Sikh, not a practicing Sikh. And it's not the first time this distinction has been explained. Not to mention that the Khan comic has him wearing a turban.
How does one identify an "ethnic" Sikh on sight? Especially with out any of the outward signs of Sikhism?
Everyone faults SPACE SEED for Khan not wearing a beard and all of the accoutrements of a Sikh, rather than blaming Marla McGivers for just not knowing what the hell she was even talking about, in the first place. And judging by her actions in this episode, I'm more inclined to believe she was never right in the head, to start with. Khan merely recognized this, from the beginning ... and exploited it. At least he committed to her, in the end.
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Old December 1 2013, 12:00 PM   #701
Set Harth
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/30...ikhs-ethnicity
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Old December 1 2013, 03:31 PM   #702
Nerys Myk
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post

*Sigh*

An ethnic Sikh, not a practicing Sikh. And it's not the first time this distinction has been explained. Not to mention that the Khan comic has him wearing a turban.
How does one identify an "ethnic" Sikh on sight? Especially with out any of the outward signs of Sikhism?
Everyone faults SPACE SEED for Khan not wearing a beard and all of the accoutrements of a Sikh, rather than blaming Marla McGivers for just not knowing what the hell she was even talking about, in the first place. And judging by her actions in this episode, I'm more inclined to believe she was never right in the head, to start with. Khan merely recognized this, from the beginning ... and exploited it. At least he committed to her, in the end.
Last time I checked Marla wasn't a writer or a real person. The blame is on the writers and producers who ignored the advice of the research company who pointed out the mistakes. Marla was not written as someone who isn't "right in the head".
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Old December 1 2013, 05:24 PM   #703
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
How does one identify an "ethnic" Sikh on sight? Especially with out any of the outward signs of Sikhism?
Everyone faults SPACE SEED for Khan not wearing a beard and all of the accoutrements of a Sikh, rather than blaming Marla McGivers for just not knowing what the hell she was even talking about, in the first place. And judging by her actions in this episode, I'm more inclined to believe she was never right in the head, to start with. Khan merely recognized this, from the beginning ... and exploited it. At least he committed to her, in the end.
Last time I checked Marla wasn't a writer or a real person. The blame is on the writers and producers who ignored the advice of the research company who pointed out the mistakes. Marla was not written as someone who isn't "right in the head".
I would say she was written stereotypically: the overly romantic, slightly addle brained, woman who swoons of the big, muscular, dominating, hunk of a man whose like something out of romance story. It was pulp-romance / soap-opera writing.
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Old December 1 2013, 05:42 PM   #704
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Whatever Marla's faults, I'm sure we're supposed to believe her when she says Khan is a Sikh. Clearly the writers are at fault.
I did think that Khan was charismatic enough that I found Marla falling under his spell believable.
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Old December 1 2013, 05:49 PM   #705
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

In-universe, Marla is the expert, who either fell in love with the object of her study, or studied that which she found attractive, or a bit of both. I think we are supposed to believe that everything she tells us about Khan's background is true, in-universe. That those things are bogus is on the writers.
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