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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 25 2013, 03:18 PM   #631
2takesfrakes
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

T'Pau is aware of Spock's being a "mixed" breed and the way she finally brings it up does seem to imply that she found it distasteful. But I would suggest this has more to do with Human Emotionalism being the sort of antithesis of what Vulcan is all about. It couldn't help but be repugnant to her, when her society openly rejects what Humanity so passionately embraces. Racial Purity has nothing to do with T'Pau's concerns, as I see it.
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Old November 25 2013, 04:41 PM   #632
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
T'Pau is aware of Spock's being a "mixed" breed and the way she finally brings it up does seem to imply that she found it distasteful. But I would suggest this has more to do with Human Emotionalism being the sort of antithesis of what Vulcan is all about. It couldn't help but be repugnant to her, when her society openly rejects what Humanity so passionately embraces. Racial Purity has nothing to do with T'Pau's concerns, as I see it.
Bigotry does not need to be racist to be bigotry. However, I find the idea that characters need to be bias-free in order to be acceptable absurd. The Vulcans are more interesting, not less, because of the contradictions between their philosophy and their actions. Same can be said of any society portrayed in fiction. And charges of racism levelled at Kirk and McCoy would be more persuasive if they were generalized rather than specific. Individuals playfully badger each other in ways that can seem quite objectionable from the outside, but harmless within the circle of friends. There is a tacit understanding of mutual acceptance of such behaviour. If a character (or a real person) extends that kind of behaviour indiscriminately, then it becomes a problem. This is not to say that neither Kirk nor McCoy (nor Spock, for that matter) are without fault on a more general level but for the characters to be labelled racist (or bigoted), far more persistent bad behaviour, generalized beyond their immediate circle, needs be present in order for the label to be meaningful. I've watched every episode and film of every iteration of Star Trek and there is nothing to support that any of the three characters are guilty of being racist/bigoted. That is carrying "sensitivity" way beyond reason.
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Old November 25 2013, 11:34 PM   #633
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ovation wrote: View Post
... charges of racism levelled at Kirk and McCoy would be more persuasive if they were generalized rather than specific. Individuals playfully badger each other in ways that can seem quite objectionable from the outside, but harmless within the circle of friends. There is a tacit understanding of mutual acceptance of such behaviour. If a character (or a real person) extends that kind of behaviour indiscriminately, then it becomes a problem. This is not to say that neither Kirk nor McCoy (nor Spock, for that matter) are without fault on a more general level but for the characters to be labelled racist (or bigoted), far more persistent bad behaviour, generalized beyond their immediate circle, needs be present in order for the label to be meaningful. I've watched every episode and film of every iteration of Star Trek and there is nothing to support that any of the three characters are guilty of being racist/bigoted. That is carrying "sensitivity" way beyond reason.
Very well said indeed. There does seem to be a tendency to too quickly label things racism these days irrespective of the intentions or perceptions of the parties involved.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:04 AM   #634
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I agree that the arrogance, and yes, sometimes bigotry from the Vulcans make them more interesting as a race.
I liked the story arc of the difficult human/Vulcan relations in Enterprise and there are still elements of it still lingering in TOS era.
I think T'Pau's comments on Spock's heritage come off as prejudiced. If Spock exhibiting traits from his human mother are repugnant to her, then that makes T'Pau seem prejudiced. It doesn't make her less interesting though, and these reactions, and the way Spock is treated by many Vulcans thru the franchise, is great character and background development for Spock.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:46 PM   #635
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
who did you find more racist. McCoy calling spock a green blooded hob goblin or the vulcan kids constantly bullying spock for his human heritage.

the vulcan kids are just been hateful and mccoy says things out of frustration.
Personally I vote for the "green-blooded, Inhuman..." incomplete sentence in TWOK. Seriously, what the hell was wrong with McCoy there ?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But Trek 2009 shows an entire cross section of Vulcans, from little children to old farts in the High Council. All of them racist. So by the time they eat it, they pretty much deserved their fate.
The Vulcan species and its entire ecosystem deserved to die because they weren't treating everybody nicely enough ?
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Old November 26 2013, 01:20 PM   #636
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

McCoy is often embarrassing to rewatch. I really would like NuTrek to find other words for the needling.

And we hold Vulcans to a high standard because they are crapping on about logic all the time. Klingons are equally racist but we expect insults to be flying out of their mouths. They look down on any race that cannot meet them as equals in battle, a value many other races don't have. Andorians, Tellarites, they were also dickheads
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Old November 27 2013, 12:08 AM   #637
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
McCoy is often embarrassing to rewatch. I really would like NuTrek to find other words for the needling.

And we hold Vulcans to a high standard because they are crapping on about logic all the time. Klingons are equally racist but we expect insults to be flying out of their mouths. They look down on any race that cannot meet them as equals in battle, a value many other races don't have. Andorians, Tellarites, they were also dickheads
McCoy enjoyed trying to get a rise out of Spock. McCoy is also bad-tempered when provoked, so he goes off half-cocked. That's all it ever was. Spock knew it. It might have been nice to see McCoy apologize on screen once in a while for an off-the-cuff remark, but I think if Spock thought for a second that McCoy was ever sincere, he wouldn't have taken half of his shit. Instead, I think see saw McCoy's remarks as tedious, tiresome, and basically frivolous. Besides, Spock got in his zingers in response.

I think Spock also knew McCoy was trying very hard to evoke his human part. Kirk also did that, but in different ways.

The interesting question for me was always if McCoy and Spock could've ever been life-long friends without Kirk, and if they would've remained friends if they lost Kirk. I could see them growing apart without Kirk as a unifying factor.

As far as the races in Trek go, all were painted with such a broad brush that if we talked about or presented real nationalities that singularly, we'd be labeled bigots or racists.
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Old November 27 2013, 12:45 AM   #638
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Franklin wrote: View Post
The interesting question for me was always if McCoy and Spock could've ever been life-long friends without Kirk, and if they would've remained friends if they lost Kirk. I could see them growing apart without Kirk as a unifying factor.
That IS interesting!

I don't think they would have become friends without Kirk. But post Kirk they would be (and are, SOB) united by their love of the great man and their valuing his memory. I'm sure McCoy would gravitate towards Spock to talk about Jim, because he would know Spock was one person who would really understand the friendship and the loss.
As far as the races in Trek go, all were painted with such a broad brush that if we talked about or presented real nationalities that singularly, we'd be labeled bigots or racists.
They all look like racists because it's supposed to show the glorious evolution of humans into a brave new world of tolerance.
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Old November 27 2013, 01:35 AM   #639
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Franklin wrote: View Post
McCoy enjoyed trying to get a rise out of Spock. McCoy is also bad-tempered when provoked, so he goes off half-cocked. That's all it ever was. Spock knew it.
In that particular instance it semed mean-spirited, though.
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Old November 27 2013, 03:12 PM   #640
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Have you never been mean-spirited with a friend? Not that I disagree with your point but it makes the character more interesting if he's flawed.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:19 PM   #641
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I'm so not sure it was mean-spirited (as in targeted solely at Spock). McCoy was an equal opportunity curmudgeon who would even lash out at Kirk once in a while. The thing is, Kirk would snap back and put McCoy in his place. More than anything else in life, I think McCoy would've relished getting Spock into a true back-and-forth shouting argument over something. He'd get more and more frustrated as Spock maintained his composure. For McCoy, that's just not human. And, he knows it's in Spock. It became a challenge. At least that's my interpretation.
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Old November 27 2013, 05:21 PM   #642
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
There have always been hints, some subtle and some obvious, that Vulcans have a streak of racism, including Spock and probably Tuvok. I don't watch Voyager that often, but doesn't Tuvok attitude toward Neelix border on racism?
Tuvok's attitude toward Neelix isn't racist, it's "Oh, no... here comes that annoying twit again, he just won't leave me in peace!"

I don't recall Tuvok displaying the same attitude to the other Talaxians we saw on the show. One of the niches Neelix filled on Voyager was the "come on, logical Vulcan person, live a little, it's not the end of the world to show a little emotion, have some fun!" sort of thing McCoy did with Spock on occasion.
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Old November 27 2013, 11:01 PM   #643
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
McCoy is often embarrassing to rewatch. I really would like NuTrek to find other words for the needling.

And we hold Vulcans to a high standard because they are crapping on about logic all the time. Klingons are equally racist but we expect insults to be flying out of their mouths. They look down on any race that cannot meet them as equals in battle, a value many other races don't have. Andorians, Tellarites, they were also dickheads
It would be interesting if Klingons would allow other warlike species into their ranks as second class citizens or equals.
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Old November 27 2013, 11:17 PM   #644
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

NuFan wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
for that audience to then evaporate or dwindle drastically.
Exactly what happened to the old universe.
And it can just as easily happen to this one, too.
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Old November 27 2013, 11:24 PM   #645
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
McCoy is often embarrassing to rewatch. I really would like NuTrek to find other words for the needling.
Not I ... can you imagine how the NuNeeling would come off as? And how soon it would become just as dated as the humour betwixt Dr. Bones McCoy and Spock TOS-style? No, best not start up any new controversy, or take any chances. Formula will do just fine for The Good Doctor and the ship's Resident Alien ... with the justification that it's "tradition."
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