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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 23 2013, 10:06 PM   #616
M'Sharak
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

DDD...D Unit wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post

Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
(TOS) Kirk looks worse when you toss in Balance of Terror. He calls down Stiles for his racism, but lets McCoy get by with it on a regular basis.
Does McCoy actually hate Vulcans or he is just teasing SpocK?
It's made plain many times that McCoy thinks quite highly of Spock and considers him a friend; however, he does also enjoy needling him. Spock not only tolerates it but on a regular basis zings McCoy right back.
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Old November 23 2013, 10:17 PM   #617
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Kirk looks worse when you toss in Balance of Terror. He calls down Stiles for his racism, but lets McCoy get by with it on a regular basis.
That's because the two are in fact not comparable, either in how they're written or in how the performances sell them.

Belz... wrote:
Only true fans should enjoy the movie.
"Audience satisfaction" isn't a built-in constant for any movie or any cultural product. It's actually pretty commonplace for large blockbusters to garner an initial audience based on "thrill ride" and spectacle factors that don't age well, and for that audience to then evaporate or dwindle drastically. Time will tell if that's what happened to nuTrek, but it's happened (to a smaller extent) to other Trek films before; TUC made money, for instance -- in fact it did better in gross terms than TWOK did -- but FWICT it has far fewer dedicated adherents today than it did on its release, or than TWOK still has.
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Old November 23 2013, 11:01 PM   #618
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
They shouldn't be. You can't have the concept of a culture believing in logic and infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and then let them run around being the greatest racists in the galaxy.
I think that's the point.

Perhaps take it up with DC Fontana?

But Trek 2009 shows an entire cross section of Vulcans, from little children to old farts in the High Council. All of them racist. So by the time they eat it, they pretty much deserved their fate.
Which was consistent with "Journey to Babel", "Amok Time" and TAS's "Yesteryear". And ENT's "Broken Bow".
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Old November 24 2013, 12:45 AM   #619
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

They see themselves as superior in every possible way. Elitism that comes across as racism though it's not about any race in particular, it's about Vulcans being better than everyone else. They've worked very hard to logic and discipline themselves out of chaos and amoral impulses, literally devoted generations to achieving this and they continue this work every single day of their lives. That other races are blithely irrational and continually reaping negative consequences for their seeming complete lack of interest in controlling their impulses makes them obviously inferior compared to Vulcans.

Vulcans are also probably raised by their parents with the same disdain they show humans directed at any childish illogical behaviors. They are steeped in that response to emotion.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:48 AM   #620
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
DDD...D Unit wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

(TOS) Kirk looks worse when you toss in Balance of Terror. He calls down Stiles for his racism, but lets McCoy get by with it on a regular basis.
Does McCoy actually hate Vulcans or he is just teasing SpocK?
It's made plain many times that McCoy thinks quite highly of Spock and considers him a friend; however, he does also enjoy needling him. Spock not only tolerates it but on a regular basis zings McCoy right back.
I can't imagine McCoy calling T'Pau or Sarek a hobgoblin. I think he regards Spock as a friend/fremeny that he can muck about with.
Still I think the name calling should remain in the 60s.
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Old November 24 2013, 10:08 AM   #621
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

No hurt, no foul.
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Old November 24 2013, 01:33 PM   #622
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.
No he wasn't. You're just used to seeing him in the role.
If they'd left him as John Harrison, they could have still made him one of the genetically engineered people. That would have given the audience
another, completely different character to think about.
Yeah I'm not sure Khan sold that many tickets...
Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or
Kirk played by a woman.
Did you miss the part where Montalban was already not Indian, and kinda white ?
Also, people on this forum have been throwing it in my face for a very long time now that the Abramsverse is a reboot of the TV SERIES. Not the
movies. Therefore, if they're going to use Khan, he should damn well resemble the TV Khan.
Why ? It's a reboot.
Profit does not equal quality, or even likeability.
Yeah but it's the only objective metric by which you can go. Individual opinions aren't really useful in determining what a studio should do next.
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Old November 24 2013, 01:53 PM   #623
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
"navel battle action"
I can see it now...
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Old November 25 2013, 12:16 AM   #624
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Racist remarks are always meant to be funny, and those who do not just skim over it are at fault.

Just replace anything Kirk and McCoy direct at Spock with real world phrases and you realize what a bunch of intolerant racists these characters are. It's the basic problem when you bring characters and their interactions from the 60s into these times. Green-blooded hobgoblin? Pointy ears? Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

[Made-up quotes containing racial/ethnic slurs redacted. Any point which needed making could have been made just as effectively without these. - M']
Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
who did you find more racist. McCoy calling spock a green blooded hob goblin or the vulcan kids constantly bullying spock for his human heritage.

the vulcan kids are just been hateful and mccoy says things out of frustration.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post

Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
who did you find more racist. McCoy calling spock a green blooded hob goblin or the vulcan kids constantly bullying spock for his human heritage.

the vulcan kids are jut been hateful and mccoy says things out of frustration.
McCoy is an adult. The kids are... kids.

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
They shouldn't be. You can't have the concept of a culture believing in logic and infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and then let them run around being the greatest racists in the galaxy. Tuvok is what I consider a typical Vulcan. There are many moments in the TV shows where people are delighted to see a Vulcan.
In the 24th century TV shows, yes. In TOS and Enterprise, not so much, due to the way the Vulcans regarded humans as flawed and illogical. Also, you all forget this;

T'PAU: Spock. Are our ceremonies for outworlders?

SPOCK: They are not outworlders, they are my friends; I have permitted this.

If that isn't racism from Vulcans, I don't know what is.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; November 25 2013 at 12:38 AM.
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Old November 25 2013, 12:30 AM   #625
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Hummus is not flawed and illogical, it is the perfect vehicle for garlic into the digestive system.
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Old November 25 2013, 12:30 AM   #626
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote: View Post
If they'd left him as John Harrison, they could have still made him one of the genetically engineered people. That would have given the audience
another, completely different character to think about.
Yeah I'm not sure Khan sold that many tickets...
Add to which (and I've already argued this countless times at blogs and websites like Racialicious) what worked in 1967 and 1982 wouldn't have worked in 2013-if Khan hand been Khan, people would have been complaining about Abrams, Orci, & Kurtzman being racist and caving in to 9/11 racist paranoia by having the villain be of colour (and I'm saying this as a black man.)

Honestly, these guys can win with some people.
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Old November 25 2013, 12:32 AM   #627
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
In the 24th century TV shows, yes. In TOS, not so much, due to the way the regarded hummus as flawed and illogical. Also, you all forget this;

T'PAU: Spock. Are our ceremonies for outworlders?

SPOCK: They are not outworlders, they are my friends; I have permitted this.
Well, therein lies the basic problem of transfering a 60s TV show to the 2010s and keeping the 1960s racism and sexism. McCoy's remarks, the Vulcan's racism, the miniskirts...
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Old November 25 2013, 01:21 AM   #628
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
for that audience to then evaporate or dwindle drastically.
Exactly what happened to the old universe.
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Old November 25 2013, 01:28 AM   #629
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
Hummus is not flawed and illogical, it is the perfect vehicle for garlic into the digestive system.
We reach.
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Old November 25 2013, 12:21 PM   #630
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
In the 24th century TV shows, yes. In TOS, not so much, due to the way the regarded hummus as flawed and illogical. Also, you all forget this;

T'PAU: Spock. Are our ceremonies for outworlders?

SPOCK: They are not outworlders, they are my friends; I have permitted this.
Well, therein lies the basic problem of transfering a 60s TV show to the 2010s and keeping the 1960s racism and sexism. McCoy's remarks, the Vulcan's racism, the miniskirts...
Look I admit that Vulcans at time appeared racist but this is not the example IMO.
T'Pau just wants to make sure that Spock's guests are going to respect the Vulcan traditions. I don't regard that as racist.

How many times do Western tourists go overseas and expect the inhabitants of the host countries cater to their whims and needs. Sometimes trampling through sacred grounds, wearing inappropriate clothing, drinking alcohol (where its not permitted)
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