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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 23 2013, 01:17 AM   #601
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

borgboy wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Racist remarks are always meant to be funny, and those who do not just skim over it are at fault.

Just replace anything Kirk and McCoy direct at Spock with real world phrases and you realize what a bunch of intolerant racists these characters are. It's the basic problem when you bring characters and their interactions from the 60s into these times. Green-blooded hobgoblin? Pointy ears? Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

[Made-up quotes containing racial/ethnic slurs redacted. Any point which needed making could have been made just as effectively without these. - M']
Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
(TOS) Kirk looks worse when you toss in Balance of Terror. He calls down Stiles for his racism, but lets McCoy get by with it on a regular basis.
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Last edited by M'Sharak; November 23 2013 at 10:10 PM.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:02 AM   #602
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Typical old boys club.
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Old November 23 2013, 10:44 AM   #603
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

borgboy wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Racist remarks are always meant to be funny, and those who do not just skim over it are at fault.

Just replace anything Kirk and McCoy direct at Spock with real world phrases and you realize what a bunch of intolerant racists these characters are. It's the basic problem when you bring characters and their interactions from the 60s into these times. Green-blooded hobgoblin? Pointy ears? Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

[Made-up quotes containing racial/ethnic slurs redacted. Any point which needed making could have been made just as effectively without these. - M']
Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
who did you find more racist. McCoy calling spock a green blooded hob goblin or the vulcan kids constantly bullying spock for his human heritage.

the vulcan kids are just been hateful and mccoy says things out of frustration.

Last edited by M'Sharak; November 23 2013 at 10:10 PM.
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Old November 23 2013, 10:46 AM   #604
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Racist remarks are always meant to be funny, and those who do not just skim over it are at fault.

Just replace anything Kirk and McCoy direct at Spock with real world phrases and you realize what a bunch of intolerant racists these characters are. It's the basic problem when you bring characters and their interactions from the 60s into these times. Green-blooded hobgoblin? Pointy ears? Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

[Made-up quotes containing racial/ethnic slurs redacted. Any point which needed making could have been made just as effectively without these. - M']
Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
who did you find more racist. McCoy calling spock a green blooded hob goblin or the vulcan kids constantly bullying spock for his human heritage.

the vulcan kids are jut been hateful and mccoy says things out of frustration.
McCoy is an adult. The kids are... kids.

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.

Last edited by M'Sharak; November 23 2013 at 10:10 PM.
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Old November 23 2013, 11:03 AM   #605
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

"Everyone's a little bit racist..." [Avenue Q.]
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Old November 23 2013, 12:47 PM   #606
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
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Old November 23 2013, 03:47 PM   #607
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
They shouldn't be. You can't have the concept of a culture believing in logic and infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and then let them run around being the greatest racists in the galaxy. Tuvok is what I consider a typical Vulcan. There are many moments in the TV shows where people are delighted to see a Vulcan.

But Trek 2009 shows an entire cross section of Vulcans, from little children to old farts in the High Council. All of them racist. So by the time they eat it, they pretty much deserved their fate.
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Old November 23 2013, 04:23 PM   #608
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I have to admit, when Vulcan was destroyed, I was more concerned about Amanda than the rest of Vulcan.
Vulcans being small minded bigots goes all the way back to the movies at least, if not TOS. There's that flashback in ST:V where Sarek expresses contempt for infant Spock as being so human. Which really adds to my disgust of Sarek. He always pushes Spock to reject his humanity. How logical is that, considering Sarek married a human woman? Even Sarek, who should be more enlightened that the average Vulcan shows racist attitudes.
I think that Vulcans come off as arrogant and xenophobic to a point. They are too proud of their own accomplishments and have a patronizing attitude toward what they consider lesser species.
They may give lip service to IDIC, but we've seen plenty of evidence across every version of Trek that Spock suffered bigotry for being a hybrid.
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Old November 23 2013, 04:40 PM   #609
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
They shouldn't be. You can't have the concept of a culture believing in logic and infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and then let them run around being the greatest racists in the galaxy. Tuvok is what I consider a typical Vulcan. There are many moments in the TV shows where people are delighted to see a Vulcan.

But Trek 2009 shows an entire cross section of Vulcans, from little children to old farts in the High Council. All of them racist. So by the time they eat it, they pretty much deserved their fate.
I also thought the Vulcans in ENT were pretty racist (including T'Pol) and some of those in DS9.
Don't even talk to me about T'Pring.
Maybe we're just seeing a bad cross-section?
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Old November 23 2013, 04:54 PM   #610
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Oh, yes. The Vulcans in ENT are pretty bad, but I think ENT did a good job of showing that the Vulcans had good reason to think humanity needed their guidance, considering how recently they had nearly destroyed themselves. I really like the difficult early diplomatic relations we see Earth having with their future allies, like Vulcans and Andorians.
This made me think of the fan film Gods and Men I think is the name, where an AU Uhura married Stonn. It's pretty good if you haven't seen it, uses a lot of Trek actors.
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Old November 23 2013, 05:31 PM   #611
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
They shouldn't be. You can't have the concept of a culture believing in logic and infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and then let them run around being the greatest racists in the galaxy. Tuvok is what I consider a typical Vulcan. There are many moments in the TV shows where people are delighted to see a Vulcan.

But Trek 2009 shows an entire cross section of Vulcans, from little children to old farts in the High Council. All of them racist. So by the time they eat it, they pretty much deserved their fate.
There have always been hints, some subtle and some obvious, that Vulcans have a streak of racism, including Spock and probably Tuvok. I don't watch Voyager that often, but doesn't Tuvok attitude toward Neelix border on racism?

I'm sure Vulcans have a logical reason in believing they are superior to everyone else. As for IDIC, its one thing talk about supporting diversity, its another to actually support it. They would't be the first group to say one thing while doing another.
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Old November 23 2013, 05:47 PM   #612
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

IDIC is a phrase that at its core essentially means "everything is relative," which is in itself, illogical. Everything is not relative.

I don't think Vulcans are overtly racist, but they are strict fundamentalists about their logic, and testify to its superiority over other ways. That leads to a certain chauvinism.
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Old November 23 2013, 05:53 PM   #613
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

borgboy wrote: View Post
Oh, yes. The Vulcans in ENT are pretty bad, but I think ENT did a good job of showing that the Vulcans had good reason to think humanity needed their guidance, considering how recently they had nearly destroyed themselves. I really like the difficult early diplomatic relations we see Earth having with their future allies, like Vulcans and Andorians.
Trek went downhill with ENT for me. I never agreed with the characterization of the Vulcans. And later they were like "oh gee, you are right, now lets have the Vulcans find the true teachings of Surak. And NOW they are the real Vulcans." Yeah right.
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Old November 23 2013, 06:21 PM   #614
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Point is, shouldn't audience satisfaction rate pretty high when talking about the overall quality of a film?
Why, no !

Only true fans should enjoy the movie.
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Old November 23 2013, 09:49 PM   #615
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Racist remarks are always meant to be funny, and those who do not just skim over it are at fault.

Just replace anything Kirk and McCoy direct at Spock with real world phrases and you realize what a bunch of intolerant racists these characters are. It's the basic problem when you bring characters and their interactions from the 60s into these times. Green-blooded hobgoblin? Pointy ears? Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

[Made-up quotes containing racial/ethnic slurs redacted. Any point which needed making could have been made just as effectively without these. - M']
Very good points. I've thought the same thing too, that McCoy is being racist, it's just easier to overlook because it's a made up prejudice, against Vulcans. Replacing the anti-Vulcan slurs with real life racism and it does give you pause to realize how this should be sounding to people around them. Kirk even comes off kind of bad for tolerating that on his bridge. I sure as heck wouldn't have allowed that if I had any authority.
It's just another example of how Trek was a product of it's time.
I like McCoy, a lot, but it's tricky to try and justify his racist name calling.
(TOS) Kirk looks worse when you toss in Balance of Terror. He calls down Stiles for his racism, but lets McCoy get by with it on a regular basis.
Does McCoy actually hate Vulcans or he is just teasing SpocK?

Last edited by M'Sharak; November 23 2013 at 10:11 PM.
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