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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 18 2013, 12:23 AM   #556
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I remember waiting for Mr. Universe to make an appearance on the show, only to my surprise that the film was his only appearance. Tells you how much the film and TV series connected for me.
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Old November 18 2013, 12:30 AM   #557
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

Of course.
No far from it. Star Trek 2009 is a very brilliant and excellent film. I will put it as high as the original trilogy mainly episode 4 and 5. It also had better acting than all the 6 star wars films.

Star Trek Into Darkness is like episode 6 or episode 3. Not bad but not great.

Star Trek 2009 and Wrath of Khan are the best Trek films and are equivalent to what Episode 4 and 5 are in the Star Wars fandom.
I wouldn't go as far as saying nuTrek is on par with the original trilogy. When it comes to space opera, I think only SERENITY managed to capture the spirit of the original STAR WARS trilogy better. One thing I do think the prequels should have had was the energy that nuTrek had.

Well for me, I am putting it that high. I don't like this thing in pop culture where people mostly male fans hold some films in such high extent that they are convinced that no other new films can touch or deserves to be put on in that same high extent.

Why?

The new films like the old films are still made by human beings.

Trek 2009 is brilliant and as good a the original trilogy. Rottentomatoes agrees with me on this one. Last I checked Trek 2009 and Episode 5 made their best ever science fiction films of all time.

As far as I am concerned they are on the same level.

I once suffered from this as well. Sheepishly following the public's opinion on films and even books. I was convinced that Lord of the rings was better than Harry Potter because that was what popculture fans mostly males kept on saying. So I accepted it without even watching the films and reading the books on my own.

When I took the time to read both series. I discovered how LOTR despite been so brilliant is still quite outdated with a pretty much black and white straight forward story and Harry Potter was far more complex with a lot of great plot twists and brilliant foreshadowings. The HP series was also more brutal and more realistic for the fantasy genre . Harry Potter also had wider social and political themes and had much more three dimensional characters than LOTR ever did.

LOTR is still the best medieval fantasy series for all time. however am not sure I will call it the best fantasy series overall because of other good modern fantasy series and its different time settings.

The same could be said for The Dark Knight. I once accepted it was the best superhero film ever made because everyone was saying so. However when I re-watched X-Men 2. I realised how far better it was to the Dark Knight with much more complex villains like Magneto and General Striker unlike The Joker in TDK who was a Gary Stu villain, quite one dimensional and lacking any depth as a character.

So yeah, I don't follow the large public opinion when it comes to films. a lot of films and series the public, which is made up of the male gender rate so high and worship so much tend to be very overrated or truly be among one of the best films but not necessary the best film.

You feel star trek 2009 should not be placed as high as the original trilogy. why?

Where exactly does it say so. You can only judge both films on the critical reception and acclaim. Star Trek 2009 matches episode 4 and 5 in this areas so to me that makes it as good.

The original trilogy are classics because they have been out longer and the star wars fan base is insane when it comes to popularity.

However I would argue that Trek 2009 is now a modern classic. SFX did name it the best scifi film of the last decade.That carries a lot of weight.

Fun Trivia

Did you know that episode 5 received mixed reviews when it was first released but over the years it became a fan and critics favourite.

Last edited by Cara007; November 18 2013 at 12:52 AM.
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Old November 18 2013, 12:36 AM   #558
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
I once suffered from this as well. Sheepishly following the public's opinion on films and even books . . . However I would argue that Trek 2009 is now a modern classic.
Awesome.
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Old November 18 2013, 12:38 AM   #559
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I'm not saying new films will never be as good as old films. Read my post, where I expressed the opinion that SERENITY manages to capture the spirit of the original trilogy quite well, and remember that the film was made in 2005, which is fairly recent.

Either way, I actually prefer THE WRATH OF KHAN over all of STAR WARS.
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Old November 18 2013, 12:41 AM   #560
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
I once suffered from this as well. Sheepishly following the public's opinion on films and even books . . . However I would argue that Trek 2009 is now a modern classic.
Awesome.
Yep, laugh all you want. That is my whole point. Star Trek 2009 is still sitting fresh at a 95% on RT, higher than all the star wars films minus episode 5.

SFX named it the best scifi film of the last decade and RT has it as one of the best sci fi films of all time just below episode 5.

So that for me is proof enough.

I love how the male fans laugh and mock me yet they can't challenge my opinions with any depth. so so typical.
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Old November 18 2013, 12:46 AM   #561
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Heh, Females.



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Old November 18 2013, 12:56 AM   #562
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
Yep, laugh all you want. That is my whole point. Star Trek 2009 is still sitting fresh at a 95% on RT
You need a little more than a couple years' distance before you can (convincingly, anyway) declare something "a modern classic". Though of course you're welcome to that opinion. But mainly I was just ribbing you for the pompous condescension about how you're not one of the rest of us pitiful sheep... in the same post with your entirely vanilla and mainstream praise of ST09.

I love how the male fans laugh and mock me yet they can't challenge my opinions with any depth.
I also find your habit of bringing up gender in questionable contexts a bit bizarre, I have to admit. It'd be kind of like my responding to one of your posts by shaking my head and saying: "This is another sad example of White Privilege run amok." There are times when that response wouldn't make sense.
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Old November 18 2013, 12:57 AM   #563
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

There are legitimate issues about gender depiction/perception in sci-fi/fantasy, and in the related fandoms. No one can deny that.

However, this "male fans" hating from Cara is rather baffling (not to mention, mostly baseless and out-of-the-blue in this context).
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Old November 18 2013, 01:14 AM   #564
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
the vulgar and deeply insubordinate treatment he received in TOS's apparently more "enlightened" writing.
McCoy's friendly rivalry with Spock sometimes skirted the bounds of propriety, although Spock gave as good as he got.

TOS however did not in fact feature Kirk employing racial slurs around Spock in the normal run of things (save the "dog-faced boy" tirade in... whatever the episode with the spores was, which was a specific tactic to free him from their influence). When Spock did encounter truly vulgar and insubordinate treatment in TOS it was usually a specific plot point and the crewmen involved were antagonists (Boma in Galileo 7, whathisface in Balance of Terror).

Which is to say, can we not go playing "let's throw TOS under the bus" for the umpteenth time this week? Yeah. That'd be great.
Kirk suggested that Spock looked like Satan in The Apple.

When someone tries to argue that nuTrek is a departure from the way Trek ought to be, I think it's perfectly appropriate, when one can point to TOS to show that, no, Trek was really always that way, to do so. Posters have done so in the case of wonky physics, more recently in the case of pulpiness, and now in the case of banter between principle characters which could be interpreted as racist.

This isn't throwing TOS under the bus. It's simply pointing out that nuTrek is not in these ways a departure from the way old Trek always was.

If one wants to argue that nuTrek should improve upon TOS in various ways, then that's certainly more valid than arguing incorrectly how Star Trek originally was.

For example, earlier this year, some poster finally said, in effect, "OK, then, I'm sick of wonky physics. It's about time that Star Trek became believable in terms of orbital mechanics." Alright, that's a coherent position, describing the sort of thing that frankly I would be open to in future episodes/films, so long as it didn't drag down the story. But that's a far different cry from claiming that nuTrek is ruining Star Trek by injecting wonky orbital mechanics. That's bull. Star Trek's orbital mechanics have always been wonky, and it is therefore most understandable, if the makers of JJTrek elect to retain that trope.
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Old November 18 2013, 01:15 AM   #565
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Kirk suggested that Spock looked like Satan in The Apple.

When someone tries to argue that nuTrek is a departure from the way Trek ought to be, I think it's perfectly appropriate, when one can point to TOS to show that, no, Trek was really always that way, to do so. Posters have done so in the case of wonky physics, more recently in the case of pulpiness, and now in the case of banter between principle characters which could be interpreted as racist.

This isn't throwing TOS under the bus. It's simply pointing out that nuTrek is not in these ways a departure from the way old Trek always was.

If one wants to argue that nuTrek should improve upon TOS in various ways, then that's certainly more valid than incorrectly arguing how Star Trek originally was.

For example, earlier this year, some poster finally said, in effect, "OK, then, I'm sick of wonky physics. It's about time that Star Trek became believable in terms of orbital mechanics." Alright, that's a coherent position, describing the sort of thing that frankly I would be open to in future episodes/films, so long as it didn't drag down the story. But that's a far different cry from claiming that nuTrek is ruining Star Trek by injecting wonky orbital mechanics. That's bull. Star Trek's orbital mechanics have always been wonky, and it is therefore most understandable, if the makers of JJTrek elect to retain that trope.
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Old November 18 2013, 01:57 AM   #566
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
TOS however did not in fact feature Kirk employing racial slurs around Spock in the normal run of things (save the "dog-faced boy" tirade in... whatever the episode with the spores was, which was a specific tactic to free him from their influence).
Kirk suggested that Spock looked like Satan in The Apple.



There's a difference between teasing Spock in good humor and flat out insulting him. He called him "Pointy" because he was upset that Spock filed a report. Before that, he sarcastically congratulated him for being "so noble". It was mean spirited of Kirk, especially in front of an Admiral who expects better from Kirk.

Again, people, CONTEXT.
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Old November 18 2013, 01:59 AM   #567
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

Again, people, CONTEXT.
Context works both ways though. This Kirk is younger and led a very different life than his prime universe counterpart.
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Old November 18 2013, 02:07 AM   #568
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Again, people, CONTEXT.
The context of my remark was in reply to something BigJake said about what did or didn't happened in TOS, in particular regarding how exceptional it was for Kirk to make fun of Spock's appearance.

The context of my remark was not in relation to any suggestion about what remarks would or would not be appropriate for nuKirk to make.

So, what-the-fuck ever.
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Old November 18 2013, 02:09 AM   #569
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

Again, people, CONTEXT.
Context works both ways though. This Kirk is younger and led a very different life than his prime universe counterpart.
He was trying to compare Kirk saying Spock looked like Satan in good humor as something that is no different to calling Spock "Pointy". That's the difference I was trying to point out.

However, the point you bring up about this Kirk being different in this alternate reality IS valid. I'll take that. However, it's not a trait that I want to see with Kirk, alternate universe or otherwise, because it only makes him more unlikable to me. Same thing like when he tries to open up with Spock, but when he doesn't respond, Kirk just rolls his eyes like "why do I bother?".
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Old November 18 2013, 02:10 AM   #570
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

Again, people, CONTEXT.
Context works both ways though. This Kirk is younger and led a very different life than his prime universe counterpart.
He was trying to compare Kirk saying Spock looked like Satan in good humor as something that is no different to calling Spock "Pointy". That's the difference I was trying to point out.
Nope. I was not. Not at all, as I just said last post.

It's you who took my remarks out of context.
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