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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 14 2013, 09:59 PM   #376
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post

I guess that's one of my strongest reasons why I don't want the writing team back. Their treatment of the female characters is just embarrassing. Sure, Uhura can speak Klingon and wants to resolve this dangerous situation in a diplomatic way, but this isn't an episode of Star Trek. This is a blockbuster action film, and when you pay for a huge set, Klingons with weapons and our characters armed with weapons, you're attempt to give Uhura a moment ends up being useless because you're writing her to fail.
This doesn't even make any sense.
Agreed.

Are women not allowed to fail in missions in the Star Trek universe now? The script would've been far worse and less exciting if she had went out and talked the Klingons down. The worth of a character isn't the success or failure of a missions but how they carry themselves when facing insurmountable odds. Uhura carried herself with grace, dignity and courage in dealing with the Klingons.
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Old November 15 2013, 12:30 AM   #377
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
This doesn't even make any sense.
Unless I'm much mistaken, Jeyl is describing Uhura's role in STID as a kind of example of the Faux Action Girl trope, which he's contending is not very much less sexist than the sexist tropes of the Sixties.
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Old November 15 2013, 12:53 AM   #378
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
This doesn't even make any sense.
Unless I'm much mistaken, Jeyl is describing Uhura's role in STID as a kind of example of the Faux Action Girl trope, which he's contending is not very much less sexist than the sexist tropes of the Sixties.
Well, that description doesn't apply. Uhura's not a Faux Action Girl. It's also somewhat amusing that Uhura doing more than her part to avert interstellar war is twisted into her being written to fail.

Anyone who captures the villain like Uhura captured Khan at the end isn't a Faux Action character anyway, although, inevitably, the fact that she used a phaser and not her bare hands was also spun by the detractors into fodder, ridiculous as that is.
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Old November 15 2013, 01:18 AM   #379
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Well, that description doesn't apply. Uhura's not a Faux Action Girl. It's also somewhat amusing that Uhura doing more than her part to avert interstellar war is twisted into her being written to fail.
I was pretty disappointed when the outcome of Uhura's being brought on the mission to speak Klingon was... a firefight with the Klingons. It did seem to me to turn what could have been an awesome moment for the character into her being little more than a disguised damsel in distress. (And the preceding scene didn't help for strength of characterization either.)

"Faux Action Girl" isn't quite a perfect fit but I do think that aspect of things is a non-crazy beef to have with the scene. She does of course get to capture Khan later, as you mention... though that's more of a bookend to Spock's fight with Khan, which might be why a lot of people forget about it.
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Old November 15 2013, 02:18 AM   #380
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
D.C. Fontana is still alive, let's bring her back.

D.C. Fontana is 'yesterday's woman' in Hollywood, and would be forgotten by a current day executive/producer in Hollywood. No offence to her or him but the OP should find something else to watch other than current Star Trek, or try to read what Roddenberry said in his Writer's Guide/prospectus about what Star Trek was supposed to be when on TV in 1966.

BigJake wrote: View Post
I was pretty disappointed when the outcome of Uhura's being brought on the mission to speak Klingon was... a firefight with the Klingons. It did seem to me to turn what could have been an awesome moment for the character into her being little more than a disguised damsel in distress. (And the preceding scene didn't help for strength of characterization either.)

"Faux Action Girl" isn't quite a perfect fit but I do think that aspect of things is a non-crazy beef to have with the scene. She does of course get to capture Khan later, as you mention... though that's more of a bookend to Spock's fight with Khan, which might be why a lot of people forget about it.
Uhura had to do something other than sit on her ass and say 'Hailing frequencies open, captain' for the umpteenth millionth time, or just act scared; the movies made her a lot better than she was on the TV show or the previous movies. And loving Spock instead of Kirk's a masterstroke on the part of the writers.
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Old November 15 2013, 02:23 AM   #381
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Well, that description doesn't apply. Uhura's not a Faux Action Girl. It's also somewhat amusing that Uhura doing more than her part to avert interstellar war is twisted into her being written to fail.
I was pretty disappointed when the outcome of Uhura's being brought on the mission to speak Klingon was... a firefight with the Klingons. It did seem to me to turn what could have been an awesome moment for the character into her being little more than a disguised damsel in distress. (And the preceding scene didn't help for strength of characterization either.)

"Faux Action Girl" isn't quite a perfect fit but I do think that aspect of things is a non-crazy beef to have with the scene. She does of course get to capture Khan later, as you mention... though that's more of a bookend to Spock's fight with Khan, which might be why a lot of people forget about it.
I can get on board with some disappointment in Uhura's portrayal in the Kronos scenes.

OK, what if Uhura had gotten the Klingons to join Kirk and company in looking for Harrison, and they all assaulted Khan together? She gets her moment to shine as the Great Communicator in a way that both materially advances the story and hits one of the highbrow notes supposedly intrinsic to Star Trek, in this instance of resolving potential conflicts peacefully whenever possible (in this case, with the Klingons). Plus, Fuck Yeah! is served by the follow-up assault on an Evil Supergenius who's Had Time to Prepare, and which I can assure you I would have made even More Awesome!

As a Monday morning quarterback/armchair screenwriter with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I can say that I'd probably have preferred that to what we got. However, I think that the writers' intent was to show Uhura succeeding, but then get foiled by Khan (edit - though, I'll admit that my memory is fuzzier than I like to admit).
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Old November 15 2013, 02:52 AM   #382
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

That would have rocked. Put her in the center-seat, and just have her own the scene.
If one single-cell organism on Earth died as a result of Uhura being in command during such a situation, people would be screaming about her being a failure and why do Orci, Kurtzman and Lindleof hate women.

I don't know whether to or at the ridiculous level of hate some fans show for the Abrams movies.
Opus wrote: View Post
Chrysalis wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

The story made sense to me.
Yup, really had no problem following any of it, as it seems, everyone else was able to also.
Yes, I agree also. This is one aspect of fan's complaints that befuddles me the most. The story is pretty easy to follow actually.
Like I said before, these people are foundamentalists stuck at the original moment of Star Trek who can't let it progress, hoping that Roddenberry will come back from the grave and dazzle all of us with his great writing.
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Old November 15 2013, 04:09 AM   #383
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Okay, let's stick from here on to talking about the movies and the people who are involved in making them - Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof, for example. Let the commentary on fans and fan groups drop, please.
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Old November 15 2013, 04:26 AM   #384
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Uhura had to do something other than sit on her ass and say 'Hailing frequencies open, captain' for the umpteenth millionth time, or just act scared; the movies made her a lot better than she was on the TV show or the previous movies.
True. Also a super-low bar, but technically true.

And loving Spock instead of Kirk's a masterstroke on the part of the writers.
I liked the way this played in ST09.

CorporalCaptain wrote:
OK, what if Uhura had gotten the Klingons to join Kirk and company in looking for Harrison, and they all assaulted Khan together? She gets her moment to shine as the Great Communicator in a way that both materially advances the story and hits one of the highbrow notes supposedly intrinsic to Star Trek, in this instance of resolving potential conflicts peacefully whenever possible (in this case, with the Klingons).
(edit: attribution fixed)

Yeah, you know, I really thought something along this line was the kind of scenario they were building up to. Well, the road not taken and all that...

M'Sharak wrote:
Let the commentary on fans and fan groups drop, please.
* Looking at my beautiful 4,000-word screed about how my Undead Clone of Gene Roddenberry was going to Wield the White Flame and purify the universe of NuTrek Infidels. Sighs wistfully. Hits delete. *

It's for the best.
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Old November 15 2013, 04:34 AM   #385
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Well, that description doesn't apply. Uhura's not a Faux Action Girl. It's also somewhat amusing that Uhura doing more than her part to avert interstellar war is twisted into her being written to fail.
I was pretty disappointed when the outcome of Uhura's being brought on the mission to speak Klingon was... a firefight with the Klingons. It did seem to me to turn what could have been an awesome moment for the character into her being little more than a disguised damsel in distress. (And the preceding scene didn't help for strength of characterization either.)

"Faux Action Girl" isn't quite a perfect fit but I do think that aspect of things is a non-crazy beef to have with the scene. She does of course get to capture Khan later, as you mention... though that's more of a bookend to Spock's fight with Khan, which might be why a lot of people forget about it.
I can get on board with some disappointment in Uhura's portrayal in the Kronos scenes.

OK, what if Uhura had gotten the Klingons to join Kirk and company in looking for Harrison, and they all assaulted Khan together? She gets her moment to shine as the Great Communicator in a way that both materially advances the story and hits one of the highbrow notes supposedly intrinsic to Star Trek, in this instance of resolving potential conflicts peacefully whenever possible (in this case, with the Klingons). Plus, Fuck Yeah! is served by the follow-up assault on an Evil Supergenius who's Had Time to Prepare, and which I can assure you I would have made even More Awesome!

As a Monday morning quarterback/armchair screenwriter with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I can say that I'd probably have preferred that to what we got. However, I think that the writers' intent was to show Uhura succeeding, but then get foiled by Khan.
I too would have liked Uhura to succeed. There was such a lead-up. You know Spock insisting to Kirk that Uhura can do it.
And I would have liked the scene to be used to reveal why Khan was there anyway. I know some people say use your own imagination. I'm just not that good. I would like a bigger hint. They could have used the scene to have them find out a little more of Khan's plan and have Uhura look like an asset even if she at some stage is foiled by Khan.
That being said, the main stars of the movie by far are Kirk, Spock and Khan. Uhura and the others are definitely second tier. If Uhura 'saved' the day then maybe Khan, Kirk and Spock wouldn't have looked so awesome.
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Old November 15 2013, 04:47 AM   #386
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
I wish this guys don't return for the third film. No offence, I am not saying they are awful but they don't just work for a franchise like Star Trek. Orci and his friends are male fan writers so it is only logical that their writing in film lacks depth, substance and is filled with too much explosions, twisted sex scenes, unnecessary nudity and all the shallowness there is with little story.

They also care too much about showing off a woman's hotness and using her as a sex object than writing her as a strong formidable woman.

Star Trek films should have a very deep story with a lot of philosophical and intellectual influences. Star Trek has never falling into the mindless summer action flicks that no one will remember again once the summer is over talk less of before the year is over.

Orci and his friends are more suited for the popcorn action flicks with all the cars and the girls like Transformers and Fast and the Furious. They just don't fit Star Trek.

I advice Paramount to get real credible and intelligent science fiction writers like Micko Kaku or Neil deGrasse Tyson to at least write the story for Star Trek and then get an Oscar winning or nominated indie screen writer or a screen writers with a large body of work that has been met with high critical acclaim to write the script for the next film.

I have been so torn with how I feel about Into Darkness but now that the year is almost over, I can now say the film was a missed opportunity and the fault is with story.

I don't except Paramount to listen to many fans. All they care about is making money and the only way to make money is to have explosions explosions and explosions with really hot girls that do nothing.

Its sad especially with Gravity out. Gravity was a beautiful and well in depth sci-fi film that will be remembered for a long time. It is what Star Trek Into Darkness should have been.
STID was the highest rated and reviewed major release of the whole year as of the last time I looked in Sept. Also, $1 billion+ in revenue later between box office and dvd/bluray for two movies, and there is no reason to get rid of these writers...period.

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Old November 15 2013, 03:36 PM   #387
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Exactly.

Extremely profitable movie, 90% approval rating, much of the 10% non-approval from fundementalist fans not the major audience, most successful outing of a franchise for a studio in many years etc etc

Yeah I think they know what they're doing, this writing team managed in a short time what Berman couldn't live up to in three or four times that span.

I for one want them to stick around.
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Old November 15 2013, 04:39 PM   #388
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Chemahkuu wrote:
much of the 10% non-approval from fundementalist fans not the major audience
Oh, just one little slice of manna:

The Risen Roddenberry shall Smite You! His Vengeance Cometh, and That Right Soon! Lo, He Bringeth the Seven Mugatos and the Seven Tribbles to Render Judgement upon the Quick and the Redshirted!

There's more where that came from, don't make me bust it out...

(Me, I'm the kind of "fundamentalist" who wants some of that Gravity-type cheddar where you get great universally-acclaimed and highly-profitable action movies whose writing and directing doesn't need defending from anyone. But if we have to go through one more round of Orci & Co. to get that chance, hey. Whatevs.)
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Old November 15 2013, 05:05 PM   #389
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

RAMA wrote: View Post
STID was the highest rated and reviewed major release of the whole year as of the last time I looked in Sept
It's not anymore. It's still relatively high on user ratings, but is currently at #100 on Rotten Tomatoes for critic ratings, and #19 for user ratings at IMDB. But it doesn't have to be #1 for the writing team to come back.

However, it's clearly not "extremely profitable," otherwise they wouldn't be cutting the budget. Extremely profitable would be something like Gravity since it had half the budget and has already topped STID.
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Old November 15 2013, 06:25 PM   #390
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Opus wrote: View Post
By some folks over-simplification of the intentions of the writers in STiD, Ripley from the Alien franchise was a useless, one-dimensional character because she wielded weapons and ran about in her underwear.
I'd like to see what Uhura would do if she were put in a situation where she's alone, without help and has only herself to rely on. You know? The kind of situations that shows a character's vulnerability, weakness and potential catastrophic decision making? No, we can't have that with someone like Uhura because we don't want her to appear weak. If you look at Ripley in ALIEN, she does have her weak moments. Even with a flame thrower in hand and a ship that's about to blow up, you can easily tell she's scared out of her mind. She doesn't know where the alien is, but she must keep going if she wants to survive. It's a genuine struggle. For Uhura, the only struggle that she has to overcome is not fretting over Spock.
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