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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 13 2013, 11:51 PM   #346
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Then I guess every Trek writer that employed the same trope is a hack?
I don't think as many Trek writers have employed the same trope as you're pretending. Makeshift is correct that it's a bad idea, and I'd certainly be willing to say that's so regardless of who employed it.
Everytime something has happened to or is headed toward Earth, there's no other ships around to address the issue.

Take STIII for example: When they stole the Enterprise, where was the ships waiting on the other side of the space doors? One, prototype starship, and that's it? They had enough time to call alert, warm up the Excelsior, and chase after them. Yet: where's the patrol fleets? Spacedock tractor beams? For that matter, how do they even make it out of the dock? Scotty was having trouble hacking the system, Excelsior could have tractored them in the dock or any other ship for that matter.

Star Trek VI: Kirk, a convicted assassin has escaped, he's heading for the conference. He starts firing on a Klingon ship. Excelsior joins in. Yet, no other Starfleet ships or Klingon ships respond?

Nemesis is another one: "Uh, you're being followed by a super-killer Romulan battlecruiser with a super weapon that can kill everyone on Earth? Yeah, we'll wait here on the other side of this nebula that totally fucks with coms and sensors, and when you don't arrive on time, we won't in anyway go and find out what happened to your ship".

And that's not counting the whole "Only ship in the sector" BS. Or Starfleeet being braindead enough to send the 1701-A to Nimbus III instead of parking Kirk's ass on another ship. Or shipping out the Enterprise-B with half the damn ship unfinished.

Then there's Preston and Riker's super-cloak, which the Romulans seem to take in stride, and nothing ever happens to anyone but Preston; seeing as Picard could have started a war by decloaking in front of a fully armed warbird and revealing that not only has the Fed violated the treaty but now has a super-weapons, and Riker should have been drummed out of the service for covering up a treaty violation and the deaths of his fellow crewmen on the Pegasus.

Starfleet does not act in anyway that could be called rational ro reasonable.
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Old November 14 2013, 12:07 AM   #347
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
Now that he is gone, I do think trouble is ahead.
Well, Abrams isn't gone, he's just producing; we already know Orci & Co. are coming back; and I think we can pretty reliably conclude that the results will make at least some money at the box office (albeit maybe not to Paramount's expectations to judge by the STiD experience, but whether the penny will eventually drop that filmmaking quality might have something to do with that... who knows ).

It's fun and diverting to come up with zany parody Orci & Co. plot pitches for the third movie, but beyond that I wouldn't worry about it at this stage. It'll be what it is. I'm more interested in what's around the corner past that.

SeerGSB: I'll get back at you in a bit. Apparently the Man expects me to like, work for my paycheque or some bogus shizznit. I was all like: "But... but someone is wrong! On the Internet!" But they're not having it.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:13 AM   #348
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
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It's too bad four years wasn't enough for these geniuses.
That kind of works under the assumption they worked on the screenplay for four years (which they didn't since it was only four years between the two films) and that the studio and Abrams accepted the script exactly as they turned it in with no changes.

I don't need to insult anyone involved in the production, either the movie works for me or it doesn't. If it doesn't I go on to something else I enjoy.
My point is that they had so much time to figure out what to do before starting on the script. They didn't have to refine the script during those whole four years, but they could have had it more figured out with all the time that allowed them to think "what do we really want to do with this film?". That didn't seem to be the case here, especially concerning the whole argument they had over Khan. The excuse for the 2009 film was that it suffered from the writers strike, so it ended up being a mishmash of various dafts resulting in stuff like "that's cheating"/"a trick I learned from a friend" creeping out which that doesn't fit in with what the rest of the film says, but it's at least understandable why stuff like that happened and somehow they were able to pull off most of it in post.

STID somehow feels more rushed, like they started on it too late and didn't really know what to settle for until well into the drafts especially in the case of Khan. Either that's a result of incompetence or there was too much hands on the script to make it really fly. I don't think it's so much the latter because they have a lot more clout especially being credited as producers. Abrams seems to just settle with what he has while adding in his own touches but not too much as he seems to trust his script buddies.

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Then I guess every Trek writer that employed the same trope is a hack?
I don't think as many Trek writers have employed the same trope as you're pretending. Makeshift is correct that it's a bad idea, and I'd certainly be willing to say that's so regardless of who employed it.
Pretty much. For example, I love "Space Seed". It's definitely my favorite of all the stories featuring Khan and is in my top 10. That being said, I really dislike the way the Marla subplot was handled and if another episode or film uses something similar, I will call it out for being awful, regardless of how I feel about the rest of the material. I'm not gonna pat STID on the back for showing Earth with a pathetic security/defense forces just because other Trek stories, better or worse, are guilty of the same trope. It's a trope I would like to see die a horrible death. I would shout "FINALLY" the moment a villain thinks he has the upper hand concerning Earth but uh oh there's a defense force that he'll never have a chance of getting past. It's like in PROMETHEUS, after so many films had characters shocked in awe over strange shit, suddenly here comes Charlize Theron ready to use a flame thrower to prevent any contamination/incident from happening, which possibly makes her the smartest character in the entire ALIEN franchise, although the cause of her death might challenge that. That's why NEMESIS falls flat when everyone starts glooming over the news "he's going after Earth", yeah, and the only thing between Earth and Shinzon is the Enterprise? Not buying it. Never will.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:40 AM   #349
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Plus, Abrams will still be involved in the next film as he is already signed to produce and he isn't going to let a shitty Trek film get to the public from his Bad Robot production company.
But he already did that. Twice.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:49 AM   #350
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Plus, Abrams will still be involved in the next film as he is already signed to produce and he isn't going to let a shitty Trek film get to the public from his Bad Robot production company.
But he already did that. Twice.
You're welcome to your opinion but I'm going to say that the bulk of people who saw the film disagree with you.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:50 AM   #351
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

More mediocre than shitty, and Hollywood thrives on mediocre because it's safe. The only Bad Robot production to exceed from that is GHOST PROTOCOL, which was surprising even for me because of how lousy III was, but I suppose having the Brad Bird factor elevated things. I wish he would direct the next Trek film, as he has the right sensibilities.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:54 AM   #352
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
More mediocre than shitty, and Hollywood thrives on mediocre because it's safe. The only Bad Robot production to exceed from that is GHOST PROTOCOL, which was surprising even for me because of how lousy III was, but I suppose having the Brad Bird factor elevated things. I wish he would direct the next Trek film, as he has the right sensibilities.
People who vote at Rotten Tomatoes actually rank both Star Trek films higher than Ghost Protocol.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:55 AM   #353
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

So what?

Going by that, people like TRANSFORMERS more than GHOST PROTOCOL.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:56 AM   #354
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Said this upthread: STID feels like two movies compressed into a single one. The last act feels like a lot of sequel concepts that were cored and compressed into final act of the first film. Khan's part fills bigger than what we got. I rarely want to see the progression of a story from draft to screen, but I'd love to see the 1st drafts to shooting drafts of this movie.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:58 AM   #355
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Said this upthread: STID feels like two movies compressed into a single one. The last act feels like a lot of sequel concepts that were cored and compressed into final act of the first film. Khan's part fills bigger than what we got. I rarely want to see the progression of a story from draft to screen, but I'd love to see the 1st drafts to shooting drafts of this movie.
I think most would, especially regarding with what Orci/Kurtzman wanted to really do vs Lindelof's ideas.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:00 AM   #356
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
So what?

Going by that, people like TRANSFORMERS more than GHOST PROTOCOL.
I'm talking about actual viewer ratings not box office. None of the Transformers movies were ahead of Ghost Protocol.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:03 AM   #357
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
So what?

Going by that, people like TRANSFORMERS more than GHOST PROTOCOL.
I'm talking about actual viewer ratings not box office. None of the Transformers movies were ahead of Ghost Protocol.
I was talking about viewer ratings. Rotten Tomatoes has people vote for TRANSFORMERS at 85% over GHOST PROTOCOL'S 76%.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:10 AM   #358
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
So what?

Going by that, people like TRANSFORMERS more than GHOST PROTOCOL.
I'm talking about actual viewer ratings not box office. None of the Transformers movies were ahead of Ghost Protocol.
I was talking about viewer ratings. Rotten Tomatoes has people vote for TRANSFORMERS at 85% over GHOST PROTOCOL'S 76%.
Right you are, I clicked the wrong one. Both sequels rated lower than Ghost Protocol.

Point is, shouldn't audience satisfaction rate pretty high when talking about the overall quality of a film?
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Old November 14 2013, 03:15 AM   #359
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Sure, if you really care so much about what other people think of these films. I like what I like, if TWOK wasn't regarded so well, fine, I still find it the most engaging of all the films. If people like nuTrek, fine, I don't think they're all that great but I'll remain hopeful for an installment I like and I think Brad Bird would be able to deliver that, whether audiences dig it or not. I'm selfish that way.
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Old November 14 2013, 04:11 AM   #360
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote:
So yes to brown face and a Spanish accent for character who's supposed to be a Sikh and an Indian?
It's decades later, and I'm assuming they could have found an actor who would have actually been Indian (or at least a very close visual match).
That would be my choice, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to telegraph: HEY EVERYBODY IT'S KHAN!!!! So casting a non Indian makes some sense.

No, the writers and producers of "Space Seed" were idiots. They wrote the line about Khan being a Sikh, yet ignored the recommendations of DeForest Research about proper Sikh names and appearance (Khan and Noonien are not Sikh names and nothing about Khan's appearance says Sikh or even Indian).
I'm not saying they weren't. Saying Marla was an idiot is a possible in-universe explanation for her statements and actions.
Not really, since author's intent is she's an "expert". The writers obviously aren't, though.


According to Spock, there was much knowledge that was lost due to the wars (and presumably the breakdown of society; physical libraries would have remained intact only up to the point where people needed paper as fuel more than they wanted to preserve the knowledge in them).

I enjoy studying about the early Roman empire, which was around for a very long time. There were highly literate people in that society who wrote histories of their past and books about their contemporary society. Yet there's a great deal of knowledge that was lost due to fires, wars, earthquakes, and so on. Even today, with the advanced technologies we have for dating and analysis, there will always be some knowledge of that society that we will never know, and can only guess at.
He says records were lost. Though that seems to be contradicted later in the episode, when they produce a picture of Khan and detailed history of what he did and where he did it.
I can't imagine that the entire Sikh population and knowledge of them would be wiped out in the Eugenics Wars.

3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island)
The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.
The first two books make it plain that Khan was born in India, to an Indian mother
I don't recall saying they didn't. As I said, I've read the books. Any book that includes every ST character mentioned to be alive in the 20th or early 21st Century as well as appearances by Hadji and Jamie Sommers is pretty much the definition of fanwank.
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