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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 12 2013, 05:23 PM   #256
JarodRussell
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

There is also nothing in TWOK that suggests that he wanted to commit genocide. All he wanted in that film was to take revenge for the death of his wife.
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Old November 12 2013, 05:47 PM   #257
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
GUYS! Khan is a product of eugenics, who knows how much tinkering with his looks the designers did! You can't look at a made in the lab experimental human and point to heritage because you just don't know what was messed around with.
Agreed. Matter of fact, I've always justified it to myself, that he wasn't actually Indian, they just went down the row of test tubes [or Petrie Dishes, or whatever method they use to make them], taping on arbitrary names (Let's see, we'll put Khan on this one, oh and this one can be Marilyn, and this one, we'll call him Jason... Gosh, I hope we didn't get any Female names stuck on any male test tubes )
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Old November 12 2013, 05:51 PM   #258
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
There is also nothing in TWOK that suggests that he wanted to commit genocide. All he wanted in that film was to take revenge for the death of his wife.
Well you're dealing with 2 different Khans between Space Seed and TWOK.

Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century,
So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me.

TWOK Khan is just a man off the deep end. The fact that he's genetically superior is completely irrelevant to the story till they needed to make him a idiot with the whole three dimensional thinking bit . He's not the same man anymore, he's broken.
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Old November 12 2013, 06:26 PM   #259
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century,
So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me
That doesn't make any sense considering he married a person who wasn't as superior as he was, but also a person who betrayed him. And do you really want to stick to that one time Khan talks about how superior he is? Because once Khan and his people capture the Enterprise and hold the entire crew captive, he continues this "superior" speech.
Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex.
Join me and I'll treat you well. That does not sound like a man who wants to kill every last one of the crew without hesitation. These are his lines in regards to his time on Earth.
Khan: We offered the world ORDER!
Khan: On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince with power over millions!
Where's the genocide? Where's the "Everything that is below me must die!" speeches? There isn't any because that is not in Khan's character.
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Old November 12 2013, 06:34 PM   #260
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century,
So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me
That doesn't make any sense considering he married a person who wasn't as superior as he was, but also a person who betrayed him. And do you really want to stick to that one time Khan talks about how superior he is? Because once Khan and his people capture the Enterprise and hold the entire crew captive, he continues this "superior" speech.
Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex.
Join me and I'll treat you well. That does not sound like a man who wants to kill every last one of the crew without hesitation. These are his lines in regards to his time on Earth.
Khan: We offered the world ORDER!
Khan: On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince with power over millions!
Where's the genocide? Where's the "Everything that is below me must die!" speeches? There isn't any because that is not in Khan's character.
Notice, he's kindness is contingent on them joining his side.

KHAN: Each of you in turn will go in there. Die while the others watch.
Just cause he's not over the top about it, doesn't make him any less smug and superior in his thinking. He and his are--in his mind--our rightful masters.

As Spock put it:

SPOCK: Unify, sir? Like a team of animals under one whip?
Side note: Spock got one hell of a "I told you so" moment from this episode.

As for Marla:

KHAN: (gazing into her eyes) It will be difficult. A struggle at first even to stay alive, to find food.
MARLA: I'll go with him, sir.
KHAN: A superior woman. I will take her. And I've gotten something else I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.
Her backstabbing him is probably cool with him. It's what he'd done, she actually outsmarted him, it impressed him.
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Old November 12 2013, 06:35 PM   #261
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

@Jeyl

You're naive if you believe Khan ruled a quarter of the planet with no massacres.
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Old November 12 2013, 06:43 PM   #262
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just cause he's not over the top about it, doesn't make him any less smug and superior in his thinking. He and his are--in his mind--out rightful masters.
But that's not the argument. The argument is that Robert Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof believe both Khans' purposes was to kill anything and anyone they deemed inferior. Genocide. That's not the case with the original Khan because, well, he doesn't have any desire to really kill anyone in Space Seed. You bring up his threat of killing everyone in the chamber, but you also left out his deal sweetener.

Khan: If anyone of you joins me, ANYONE, I'll let him live. *no one answers* It's so useless!

Before it was Mr. Spock who had to join Khan in order to spare Kirk's life. Again, where is this "I will kill all of you for being inferior to me!" attitude that you think the original depiction of Khan has?
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Old November 12 2013, 06:52 PM   #263
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Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just cause he's not over the top about it, doesn't make him any less smug and superior in his thinking. He and his are--in his mind--out rightful masters.
But that's not the argument. The argument is that Robert Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof believe both Khans' purposes was to kill anything and anyone they deemed inferior. Genocide. That's not the case with the original Khan because, well, he doesn't have any desire to really kill anyone in Space Seed. You bring up his threat of killing everyone in the chamber, but you also left out his deal sweetener.

Khan: If anyone of you joins me, ANYONE, I'll let him live. *no one answers* It's so useless!

Before it was Mr. Spock who had to join Khan in order to spare Kirk's life. Again, where is this "I will kill all of you for being inferior to me!" attitude that you think the original depiction of Khan has?
The whole fucking briefing room exchange makes it clear that they're only alive cause he needs their training. If they don't join him, they're fucked--training or not. He's not got clean hands. He's perfectly cool with killing people and making it clear "I'm better than you cause I"m superior".

You think Earth banned eugenics cause Khan and his people where happy fun guys?
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Old November 12 2013, 06:53 PM   #264
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Okay, that was hyperboles. But the point still stand, she's arguing that brownface is indeed an acceptable way to portrait brown-skinned people. Let's just say I strongly disagree.
The question can sometimes be complicated, but I don't disagree with you that asking for brownface on TWOK Khan is taking fidelity to the original a step too far.

OTOH it's something of a distraction from the general and harder-to-dismiss point that Khan was conceived as a kind of Exotic Potentate type, and that Montalban in either version he played sold that concept impeccably in both his person and his performance. That exoticism -- the sense of Khan's having been an autocratic "foreign" Prince with a pronounced aristocratic view of the world -- was genuinely a major part of the character's charisma, what made him compelling and memorable. In Space Seed he's the blind arrogance and ruthlessness of a Ruler Caste made flesh; and if in TWOK he's something of an Ahab analogue, he's also a manifestation of affronted Princely pride.

Little of that survives in nuKhan, and I'd have to part company with Timewalker in thinking that this isn't really a question of the actor chosen -- Cumberbatch is no less capable than Montalban -- so much as in the writing of the part. To some extent I think it's understandable that STiD chose to play up the eugenical superman aspect of things and downplay the exoticism aspect, which in itself could bring up troubling questions about Orientalism. But if one is going to jettison the factors that made Khan distinct as a character... it then becomes harder to understand why the character left needed to be Khan at all.

Why not have him be a different remnant of the Eugenics Wars, or something else entirely? It's not like it was necessary to Admiral Marcus' plot to have Khan as his weapons designer, or like it would be out of place for the Federation to have its own homegrown geniuses and/or badass super-agents. Did the movie or the reboot franchise as a whole really gain that much from putting itself in the same frame as TWOK? I enjoyed Quinto doing the Khan yell as much as the next bloke, but how essential a moment was that really? Or the literally inverted death scene from TWOK?

I don't feel as strongly about nuKhan as some do, but I do get what annoys people about him. And I would have loved to see Cumberbatch get to play his own villain.
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Old November 12 2013, 07:01 PM   #265
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
@Jeyl

You're naive if you believe Khan ruled a quarter of the planet with no massacres.
If you're implying that he and his followers had to kill in order to seize power, that's certainly well within the realm of possibilities. But that was only to seize power. Once he had that power, there was no more need for massacring. If he did commit acts of mass murder, why didn't those who overthrew him make that point in the history books? Scotty himself had a sneaking admiration specifically for Khan. You think a man who massacred whole groups of people would earn the respect of Kirk and other members of the crew? I don't believe so. Besides, Khan wasn't the only superman to rule over parts of Earth.
SPOCK: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
When you take that exchange into account, you could conclude that Khan wasn't the merciless superman who ruled through massacres. Khan's ambition, which is stated again and again in this episode is to rule, not commit acts of genocide because he doesn't like having "inferior" beings around.
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Old November 12 2013, 07:09 PM   #266
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole fucking briefing room exchange makes it clear that they're only alive cause he needs their training. If they don't join him, they're fucked--training or not.
Tone the language down please.

Also, if he doesn't need crew who won't help him, why didn't he kill Mr. Kyle in the transporter room? Marla obviously has the know how to work the transporter, so why does Khan only incapacitate him?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
He's not got clean hands.
I'm not saying that he does have clean hands. In fact, I would wager that there's hardly a leader of a nation who hasn't given a command that literally decided who lives and who dies. I know every president I've endured has given the command to kill people for the sake of freedom and peace, but we still follow them anyways.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
He's perfectly cool with killing people and making it clear "I'm better than you cause I"m superior".
He may be cool about killing people, BUT NOT because he thinks he's superior. He wants to rule more than he wants to kill, and what good is an empire if all you do is kill those who aren't as superior as you are?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
You think Earth banned eugenics cause Khan and his people where happy fun guys?
So, we should kill Bashir?
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Old November 12 2013, 07:11 PM   #267
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
@Jeyl

You're naive if you believe Khan ruled a quarter of the planet with no massacres.
If you're implying that he and his followers had to kill in order to seize power, that's certainly well within the realm of possibilities. But that was only to seize power. Once he had that power, there was no more need for massacring. If he did commit acts of mass murder, why didn't those who overthrew him make that point in the history books? Scotty himself had a sneaking admiration specifically for Khan. You think a man who massacred whole groups of people would earn the respect of Kirk and other members of the crew? I don't believe so. Besides, Khan wasn't the only superman to rule over parts of Earth.
SPOCK: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
When you take that exchange into account, you could conclude that Khan wasn't the merciless superman who ruled through massacres. Khan's ambition, which is stated again and again in this episode is to rule, not commit acts of genocide because he doesn't like having "inferior" beings around.
Yet TNG slots him into the same category as Hitler--and what was Hitler known for again? Or another Khan arising was so fear that 300 years later, Starfleet still is scared shitless of happening again:

Bennet: I don't think so. Two hundred years ago, we tried to "improve" the species through DNA resequencing and what did we get for our trouble? The Eugenics Wars. For every Julian Bashir that can be created, there's a Khan Singh waiting in the wings --a "superhuman" whose ambition and thirst for power have been enhanced along with his intellect. The law against genetic engineering provides a firewall against such men and it's my job to keep that firewall intact.
Picard: I know, Professor, "What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh?
Now you could say that Marcus overstated what Khan did. That while a war-criminal, that what he did was more or less on par with some of the worse of the World Wars minus the concentration camps. That he restricted his war to his own people. Either way, in both realities--minus Kirk's hero worship (if I was Spock, I'd never let him live that down after TWOK)--Khan was bad enough to install fear global government and interstellar navy centuries later. You don't get that rep for cause you were the nice tyrant.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole fucking briefing room exchange makes it clear that they're only alive cause he needs their training. If they don't join him, they're fucked--training or not.
Tone the language down please.
Uh, fuck and no.
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Old November 12 2013, 07:18 PM   #268
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole fucking briefing room exchange makes it clear that they're only alive cause he needs their training. If they don't join him, they're fucked--training or not. He's not got clean hands.
In all fairness, being arrogant or ruthless or even out-and-out racist is not necessarily the same thing as being "genocidal."

Khan in Space Seed is most certainly an egotist and an autocrat and a ruthless, potentially murderous bastard. But he also has a genuine and obvious desire to satisfy his ego through the rule over and adulation of lesser beings, hence his relationship with McGivers. He's not a psychopath who's restrained from murdering everyone around him only by the absolute necessity of keeping people alive; he is a Prince who believes to the bones in his own rhetoric, his own superiority, and his frustration over the seeming determination of the crew to defy him to the death seems genuine. When we're told that history records him as having refrained from massacres, it's a believable fit with the character we see in the episode (however evil he may otherwise be).

Of course, it's not possible to definitively acquit TOS Khan of genocide or mass-murder either... although I always did have the sense that Khan is meant to be a character genuinely gifted enough at domination and manipulation to usually find other, less lethal ways.

[Uh, I feel like I'm repeating a recent post here... hopefully not from earlier in this thread...]
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Old November 12 2013, 07:28 PM   #269
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Even before STID, Berman Era Trek had turned Khan into a Dictator on par with Hitler, a man so feared that Earth and Starfleet was terrified of there ever being another one like him. That's not the work of a skilled diplomat, that's someone that was racking and stacking bodies.
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Old November 12 2013, 07:43 PM   #270
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans
Dude. W. The actual. F. Really?
Okay, that was hyperboles. But the point still stand, she's arguing that brownface is indeed an acceptable way to portrait brown-skinned people. Let's just say I strongly disagree.
How about you just not assume things about my personal beliefs and character just because I don't think a particular actor is suited to a particular role?

It seems as though you're blaming me for a decision made by a TV production team when I was 4 years old and hadn't ever heard of Star Trek at the time. Even at the time when I first saw Space Seed, I didn't know what Ricardo Montalban's RL complexion was - so you will have to accept that I accepted the Original Khan skin tone as normal for him.

Also, people on this forum have been throwing it in my face for a very long time now that the Abramsverse is a reboot of the TV SERIES. Not the movies. Therefore, if they're going to use Khan, he should damn well resemble the TV Khan.

One more thing: Regarding the use of makeup to present caucasian actors as other ethnicities... did the casting director actually audition any Indian actors for Khan? I don't know if he did or didn't. But the final decision was made to cast Ricardo Montalban, and you for damn sure can't blame that on me.

Also, regarding makeup: I used to work in the local theatre company, mostly on the musicals. Back in the '80s, we did a production of "The King and I" (adapted from the book Anna and the King of Siam). As I recall, there weren't a hell of a lot of Asian actors in that production. The reason wasn't some racist notion that "Asian people in an Asian-themed play? Don't be stupid!". The reason was that there weren't a lot of Asian people who auditioned who could actually sing, dance, act, and commit to several months' worth of rehearsals and performances. So the caucasian people playing Asian characters were made up to look as Asian as possible. That involved a lot of "browning" some of them, since they were normally fair-skinned and blond. There were some Asian actors/actresses among the cast, and the part of the King was played by a man from India. Would it have been more authentic to have Asian actors in all the Asian roles for this play? Yep. But there simply weren't enough available, so the producer and director went with the people they did have. And I'm assuming the Star Trek production people had a similar situation for "Space Seed."
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