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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 12 2013, 01:30 AM   #226
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist. Seriously, this is crossing the line.
I wasn't willing to open that can of worms, but that's exactly how your post came across.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:39 AM   #227
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:42 AM   #228
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
The two versions were in two entirely different situations though. The Into Darkness version isn't in a situation where he has to woo Kirk and his crew.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:49 AM   #229
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
The two versions were in two entirely different situations though. The Into Darkness version isn't in a situation where he has to woo Kirk and his crew.
Yeppers. This is a Khan that's been on Marcu's leash for a year and has had his people used against him. Whole different set of factors with Nu-Khan

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Timewalker wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist. Seriously, this is crossing the line.
I wasn't willing to open that can of worms, but that's exactly how your post came across.
How I read it; just didn't want to wade into it.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:50 AM   #230
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:56 AM   #231
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.
Well there is some of the old Khan there. The smug, superior, narrow focus, attitude. It's just he's more blood-thirsty as a result of being used by Marcus. He's past playing games.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:56 AM   #232
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.
Sometimes performances don't work for everyone. Personally, I thought Cumberbatch was a great Khan.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:58 AM   #233
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I've found that the people who care for the "science" in Trek are the ones who understand the least about actual science. (For example, failing to recognize the difference between science writing and science fiction.)
JFC, when did I do that?

FTL? All good. Transporters? Fine and dandy. FTL transporters? Now you are mad. It's so silly.
I don't recall being one of the people complaining about nuKhan's magic transporter. Other people did those posts.
And, in fact, I was not talking about you. I know it might come as a surprise, but not everything is about you.

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I understand the aspects of Star Trek that I like just fine. If I've tuned out the rest, too damn bad. Get over it. There's no rule that says I have to pay attention to EVERY bit of minutiae.
As I already mentioned elsewhere, it kind of does if you are going to bitch about it.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist.
Then I strongly suggest you not make racially insensitive posts.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Seriously, this is crossing the line.
I'd cross the line three times and jump all over it to point at racism, however disguised, when I see it.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I wasn't willing to open that can of worms, but that's exactly how your post came across.
Sometimes opening a can of worms is better than lying it around to rot. The off-hand, unconspicuous racism of some people is really upsetting. I can understand it in the 60s. But to look at it with today's eyes and not see the inherent racial issue in it is... damning.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:59 AM   #234
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I like Cumberbatch, but not in this one. It's odd though, because I think Abrams does a good job of getting solid performances from everyone in the cast.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:59 AM   #235
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
I would definitely have liked to see a little more flamboyance but I do think the situation was too different. In Space Seed he is in wooing mode, wooing the crew and the woman and his own followers. So we saw him at his most charismatic.

We do see some of this wooing when he is out to talk Kirk into seeing his point of view, letting him out etc.. that was reminiscent of Khan in Space Seed. I think we saw less arrogant mustache twirling with Cumberbatch because to a modern audience it might have played tacky. We have had decades of cold, cold, introverted sociopaths replace dapper villains since Space Seed. I am sure they wanted to avoid any cartoon qualities attaching to Khan.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:08 AM   #236
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
I would definitely have liked to see a little more flamboyance but I do think the situation was too different. In Space Seed he is in wooing mode, wooing the crew and the woman and his own followers. So we saw him at his most charismatic.

We do see some of this wooing when he is out to talk Kirk into seeing his point of view, letting him out etc..that was reminiscent of Khan in Space Seed. I think we saw less arrogant mustache twirling with Cumberbatch because to a modern audience it might have played tacky. We have had decades of cold, cold, introverted sociopaths replace dapper villains since Space Seed. I am sure they wanted to avoid any cartoon qualities attaching to Khan.
Except it's retained TWOK, when he doesn't have to woo anyone to get his way when he's already in a dominant position. I say if you're gonna use Khan, give him some of the traits that made him unique rather than just being another low voiced brooding villain that a lot of movies seem to go with, the most popular today being Loki from the Marvel films, as great as he is he doesn't have to be emulated. Even after nearly 50 years, Khan still works nicely as a memorable villain. It would have been at least admirable to go back to this so called "mustache twirling" villain, going against what's perceived as today's popular villains, or at least temper it enough for younger audiences to roll along with.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:10 AM   #237
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post

If Montalban's normal complexion was indeed pale, they should have done his makeup in the movie to match how he was in the TV show. Or maybe it's simply a matter of people who live for many year out of the natural sunlight (only an idiot would go out on the surface of Ceti Alpha V bareskinned) would be paler than they might otherwise be.
I'm pretty sure if your skin is naturally dark, no amount of time away from natural sunlight is going to make your skin that pale. The contortions you're going through to rationalize Montalban's casting does little to help your case.

Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.
Why would changing Saavik's backstory change her looks?

You're the one who brought up the ethic differences between Cumberbatch and Montalban. Alley and Curtis are also of different ethnic backgrounds, yet that's okay, even though other than being brunette females, they look nothing alike. Cumberbatch and Montalban look more alike that Curtis and Alley.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:12 AM   #238
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
I would definitely have liked to see a little more flamboyance but I do think the situation was too different. In Space Seed he is in wooing mode, wooing the crew and the woman and his own followers. So we saw him at his most charismatic.

We do see some of this wooing when he is out to talk Kirk into seeing his point of view, letting him out etc..that was reminiscent of Khan in Space Seed. I think we saw less arrogant mustache twirling with Cumberbatch because to a modern audience it might have played tacky. We have had decades of cold, cold, introverted sociopaths replace dapper villains since Space Seed. I am sure they wanted to avoid any cartoon qualities attaching to Khan.
Except it's retained TWOK, when he doesn't have to woo anyone to get his way when he's already in a dominant position. I say if you're gonna use Khan, give him some of the traits that made him unique rather than just being another low voiced brooding villain that a lot of movies seem to go with, the most popular today being Loki from the Marvel films, as great as he is he doesn't have to be emulated. Even after nearly 50 years, Khan still works nicely as a memorable villain. It would have been at least admirable to go back to this so called "mustache twirling" villain, going against what's perceived as today's popular villains, or at least temper it enough for younger audiences to roll along with.


Oh that is definitely what I would have wanted. Though Khan was also low voiced doing the wooing he had that immediate hot headed temper. He was scary. He exuded menace.I didn't think Cumberbatch really pulled that off, or perhaps didn't try to. I think that's what did bother me about the performance, kind of too prefab sociopath as we currently see all the time. Everything so restrained.. but Khan in TWOK and SS wasn't always really like that. In fact he blows it fairly quickly in SS letting his temper and politics fly him off the handle at the dinner.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:54 AM   #239
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Or maybe it's simply a matter of people who live for many year out of the natural sunlight (only an idiot would go out on the surface of Ceti Alpha V bareskinned) would be paler than they might otherwise be.
In that case, "Space Seed" Khan actually was only tanned and not dark skinned, and that tan had worn by Wrath of Khan - just as Into Darkness' Khan's tan would have worn off working in the Section 31 base beneath London for a year.
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Old November 12 2013, 03:00 AM   #240
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Next on "Star Trek: Because Fuck Science!":

Brown-skinned people are actually just tanned, and they become white when kept out of the sun for long.

Good grief.
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