RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,395
Posts: 5,505,637
Members: 25,127
Currently online: 482
Newest member: OneOfFour

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 12 2013, 01:30 AM   #226
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist. Seriously, this is crossing the line.
I wasn't willing to open that can of worms, but that's exactly how your post came across.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:39 AM   #227
MakeshiftPython
Captain
 
MakeshiftPython's Avatar
 
Location: Ladies love Riker's beard.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
MakeshiftPython is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:42 AM   #228
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
The two versions were in two entirely different situations though. The Into Darkness version isn't in a situation where he has to woo Kirk and his crew.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:49 AM   #229
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
The two versions were in two entirely different situations though. The Into Darkness version isn't in a situation where he has to woo Kirk and his crew.
Yeppers. This is a Khan that's been on Marcu's leash for a year and has had his people used against him. Whole different set of factors with Nu-Khan

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist. Seriously, this is crossing the line.
I wasn't willing to open that can of worms, but that's exactly how your post came across.
How I read it; just didn't want to wade into it.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:50 AM   #230
MakeshiftPython
Captain
 
MakeshiftPython's Avatar
 
Location: Ladies love Riker's beard.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.
MakeshiftPython is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:56 AM   #231
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.
Well there is some of the old Khan there. The smug, superior, narrow focus, attitude. It's just he's more blood-thirsty as a result of being used by Marcus. He's past playing games.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:56 AM   #232
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.
Sometimes performances don't work for everyone. Personally, I thought Cumberbatch was a great Khan.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:58 AM   #233
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I've found that the people who care for the "science" in Trek are the ones who understand the least about actual science. (For example, failing to recognize the difference between science writing and science fiction.)
JFC, when did I do that?

FTL? All good. Transporters? Fine and dandy. FTL transporters? Now you are mad. It's so silly.
I don't recall being one of the people complaining about nuKhan's magic transporter. Other people did those posts.
And, in fact, I was not talking about you. I know it might come as a surprise, but not everything is about you.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I understand the aspects of Star Trek that I like just fine. If I've tuned out the rest, too damn bad. Get over it. There's no rule that says I have to pay attention to EVERY bit of minutiae.
As I already mentioned elsewhere, it kind of does if you are going to bitch about it.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist.
Then I strongly suggest you not make racially insensitive posts.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Seriously, this is crossing the line.
I'd cross the line three times and jump all over it to point at racism, however disguised, when I see it.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I wasn't willing to open that can of worms, but that's exactly how your post came across.
Sometimes opening a can of worms is better than lying it around to rot. The off-hand, unconspicuous racism of some people is really upsetting. I can understand it in the 60s. But to look at it with today's eyes and not see the inherent racial issue in it is... damning.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:59 AM   #234
MakeshiftPython
Captain
 
MakeshiftPython's Avatar
 
Location: Ladies love Riker's beard.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I like Cumberbatch, but not in this one. It's odd though, because I think Abrams does a good job of getting solid performances from everyone in the cast.
MakeshiftPython is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 01:59 AM   #235
teacake
Fleet Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Google's ass cave full of the lush, lush asses they have stolen.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
I would definitely have liked to see a little more flamboyance but I do think the situation was too different. In Space Seed he is in wooing mode, wooing the crew and the woman and his own followers. So we saw him at his most charismatic.

We do see some of this wooing when he is out to talk Kirk into seeing his point of view, letting him out etc.. that was reminiscent of Khan in Space Seed. I think we saw less arrogant mustache twirling with Cumberbatch because to a modern audience it might have played tacky. We have had decades of cold, cold, introverted sociopaths replace dapper villains since Space Seed. I am sure they wanted to avoid any cartoon qualities attaching to Khan.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 02:08 AM   #236
MakeshiftPython
Captain
 
MakeshiftPython's Avatar
 
Location: Ladies love Riker's beard.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
I would definitely have liked to see a little more flamboyance but I do think the situation was too different. In Space Seed he is in wooing mode, wooing the crew and the woman and his own followers. So we saw him at his most charismatic.

We do see some of this wooing when he is out to talk Kirk into seeing his point of view, letting him out etc..that was reminiscent of Khan in Space Seed. I think we saw less arrogant mustache twirling with Cumberbatch because to a modern audience it might have played tacky. We have had decades of cold, cold, introverted sociopaths replace dapper villains since Space Seed. I am sure they wanted to avoid any cartoon qualities attaching to Khan.
Except it's retained TWOK, when he doesn't have to woo anyone to get his way when he's already in a dominant position. I say if you're gonna use Khan, give him some of the traits that made him unique rather than just being another low voiced brooding villain that a lot of movies seem to go with, the most popular today being Loki from the Marvel films, as great as he is he doesn't have to be emulated. Even after nearly 50 years, Khan still works nicely as a memorable villain. It would have been at least admirable to go back to this so called "mustache twirling" villain, going against what's perceived as today's popular villains, or at least temper it enough for younger audiences to roll along with.
MakeshiftPython is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 02:10 AM   #237
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post

If Montalban's normal complexion was indeed pale, they should have done his makeup in the movie to match how he was in the TV show. Or maybe it's simply a matter of people who live for many year out of the natural sunlight (only an idiot would go out on the surface of Ceti Alpha V bareskinned) would be paler than they might otherwise be.
I'm pretty sure if your skin is naturally dark, no amount of time away from natural sunlight is going to make your skin that pale. The contortions you're going through to rationalize Montalban's casting does little to help your case.

Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.
Why would changing Saavik's backstory change her looks?

You're the one who brought up the ethic differences between Cumberbatch and Montalban. Alley and Curtis are also of different ethnic backgrounds, yet that's okay, even though other than being brunette females, they look nothing alike. Cumberbatch and Montalban look more alike that Curtis and Alley.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 02:12 AM   #238
teacake
Fleet Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Google's ass cave full of the lush, lush asses they have stolen.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
My main issue with nuKhan isn't that he looks nothing like the last one, it's more that he doesn't resemble the Khan I saw in "Space Seed" character wise. nuKhan is more of a brute thug without the flair and flamboyance that Montalbán's Khan had that made him so memorable.
I would definitely have liked to see a little more flamboyance but I do think the situation was too different. In Space Seed he is in wooing mode, wooing the crew and the woman and his own followers. So we saw him at his most charismatic.

We do see some of this wooing when he is out to talk Kirk into seeing his point of view, letting him out etc..that was reminiscent of Khan in Space Seed. I think we saw less arrogant mustache twirling with Cumberbatch because to a modern audience it might have played tacky. We have had decades of cold, cold, introverted sociopaths replace dapper villains since Space Seed. I am sure they wanted to avoid any cartoon qualities attaching to Khan.
Except it's retained TWOK, when he doesn't have to woo anyone to get his way when he's already in a dominant position. I say if you're gonna use Khan, give him some of the traits that made him unique rather than just being another low voiced brooding villain that a lot of movies seem to go with, the most popular today being Loki from the Marvel films, as great as he is he doesn't have to be emulated. Even after nearly 50 years, Khan still works nicely as a memorable villain. It would have been at least admirable to go back to this so called "mustache twirling" villain, going against what's perceived as today's popular villains, or at least temper it enough for younger audiences to roll along with.


Oh that is definitely what I would have wanted. Though Khan was also low voiced doing the wooing he had that immediate hot headed temper. He was scary. He exuded menace.I didn't think Cumberbatch really pulled that off, or perhaps didn't try to. I think that's what did bother me about the performance, kind of too prefab sociopath as we currently see all the time. Everything so restrained.. but Khan in TWOK and SS wasn't always really like that. In fact he blows it fairly quickly in SS letting his temper and politics fly him off the handle at the dinner.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 02:54 AM   #239
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Or maybe it's simply a matter of people who live for many year out of the natural sunlight (only an idiot would go out on the surface of Ceti Alpha V bareskinned) would be paler than they might otherwise be.
In that case, "Space Seed" Khan actually was only tanned and not dark skinned, and that tan had worn by Wrath of Khan - just as Into Darkness' Khan's tan would have worn off working in the Section 31 base beneath London for a year.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12 2013, 03:00 AM   #240
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Next on "Star Trek: Because Fuck Science!":

Brown-skinned people are actually just tanned, and they become white when kept out of the sun for long.

Good grief.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.