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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 11 2013, 06:09 PM   #211
BigKrampus
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
That's kind of the point though: STID isn't really anything different from what Trek's done before--good or bad.
I don't think this is actually true in that STID and ST09's sheer concentration of pulp SF memes puts the overall gestalt far closer to Wars than Trek ever previously went: but analyzed meme by meme you can most certainly find things in old Trek that parallel things in nuTrek. It's just that the more of those parallels come from old Trek at its worst, the less those comparisons will do to dilute the proverbial Hatorade.
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Old November 11 2013, 06:19 PM   #212
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
That's kind of the point though: STID isn't really anything different from what Trek's done before--good or bad.
I don't think this is actually true in that STID and ST09's sheer concentration of pulp SF memes puts the overall gestalt far closer to Wars than Trek ever previously went: but analyzed meme by meme you can most certainly find things in old Trek that parallel things in nuTrek. It's just that the more of those parallels come from old Trek at its worst, the less those comparisons will do to dilute the proverbial Hatorade.
The magic cure all one shot has been a Trek Trope for most of the franchise. Though McCoy gets the lion's share of the blame in pop-culture he wasn't a free and loose with the hypo the way later Treks were. TNG was really the worse offender of it and made it a staple of Trek.

STID suffers from having these standard issue Trek fare tropes compressed into a single 2 hour movie. And, as much as I enjoy the movie, I'll be the first to say: they stuff to much, to fast, into the movie. It's too loyal to the franchise's concepts and gimmicks. It isn't Star Wars, it's a season of Berman Trek compressed into 2 hours. It's like the way some anime series will take a 40 episode series and retell the whole thing as a 2 hour movie (example: Macross: Do You Remember Love). It's good, but it doesn't do the original as much justice as it could.

The Abrams movies are good, easily in the top 5 or so of Trek films. But they suffer from being overly loyal to the franchise--STID most of off.
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Old November 11 2013, 06:21 PM   #213
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Hm, the point about the effects of compression is interesting. There might be something to that.
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Old November 11 2013, 06:24 PM   #214
Timewalker
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!
You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?
And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.

ALL of Khan's people changed between Space Seed and the movie. Some say it's because they were actually a fast-growing second generation, while others have speculated it was extreme stress that brought on Khan's physical changes. Whatever... it was the same character, played by the same actor.

As for Marla, she was an idiot.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote:
Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.
Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?
Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.

As for my comment re: adoption... that's the ONLY explanation I would ever accept to explain why nuKhan looks the way he does. The character is Indian. This actor doesn't look remotely Indian, or from anywhere close to India. Therefore, if he's to have that name, I'd accept adoption as a workaround.

(even Spock knew how to recognize sarcasm... )
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Old November 11 2013, 06:37 PM   #215
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Hm, the point about the effects of compression is interesting. There might be something to that.
Think about it: 2 hours and less than a minute to explain a gimmick. Vesus 24 episode across multiple episodes to explain and evolve a gimmick. You've got to pick and choose what is important to the story you're telling and how much time you spend on the filler when a story's time compressed like that.

Kirk's death and resurrection wasn't the story they were telling. So they shorthanded it down to "Dr McCoy's Magic Hypo strikes again". I wouldn't even count it as a real plot point, cause you could cut it out, change a couple of lines and that still tell the same main story.
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Old November 11 2013, 08:39 PM   #216
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?
And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.
No he does not look Indian at all, he was just brownfaced for "Space Seed"
ALL of Khan's people changed between Space Seed and the movie. Some say it's because they were actually a fast-growing second generation, while others have speculated it was extreme stress that brought on Khan's physical changes. Whatever... it was the same character, played by the same actor.

As for Marla, she was an idiot.
Stress turned Khan white? I'm not sure whether to laugh or be embarrassed, here.
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote:
Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.
Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?
Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.
Compare Khan's Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness skin colours - both are white. You're selectively nitpicking, here. Here are some pics of Montalban, note the colour of his skin.
As for my comment re: adoption... that's the ONLY explanation I would ever accept to explain why nuKhan looks the way he does. The character is Indian. This actor doesn't look remotely Indian, or from anywhere close to India. Therefore, if he's to have that name, I'd accept adoption as a workaround.

(even Spock knew how to recognize sarcasm... )
Neither does Ricardo Montalban! He's as Indian as Cumberbatch - you only see "not white" (in brownface "Space Seed" at least) and assume it's "closer" - and it's ignorant and offensive. here are some Indian men. Look up at the pics of Khan I posted again - none of them look anything like Ricardo Montalban, even when they brownfaced him.

Explanation? Khan was made in a lab, his skin colour is therefore completely irrelevant, the whim of his creator or a fluke result of DNA modifications.
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Old November 11 2013, 09:26 PM   #217
Sindatur
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
You do know Montalban was a Latino actor born in Mexico? So they should've hired another Mexican national to play Khan?
And that this supposed Indian turned white way back in Wrath of Khan?

And that, despite Marla's bizarre claim in "Space Seed", couldn't possibly have been identified as a Sikh on-sight due to his being clean-shaven, having a waxed chest and going without their sacred turban?
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.

ALL of Khan's people changed between Space Seed and the movie. Some say it's because they were actually a fast-growing second generation, while others have speculated it was extreme stress that brought on Khan's physical changes. Whatever... it was the same character, played by the same actor.

As for Marla, she was an idiot.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote:
Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!

Naturally, there are NO actors on the whole damn planet who they could have found to play the part of Khan Noonian Singh without having to mumble something like, "Well, y'see I was adopted..."
.
Different actors have played the same parts in all sorts of films. We've had two Saaviks and two Cochranes with in the same continuity of Star Trek. Why draw the line at Khan? Are Curtis and Ally of the same ethnic background? And as been pointed out neither Montalban nor Cumberbatch are Indian and neither one spoke with an Indian accent.

Where was it stated Khan was adopted in either film or the TV series?
Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.

As for my comment re: adoption... that's the ONLY explanation I would ever accept to explain why nuKhan looks the way he does. The character is Indian. This actor doesn't look remotely Indian, or from anywhere close to India. Therefore, if he's to have that name, I'd accept adoption as a workaround.

(even Spock knew how to recognize sarcasm... )
Montalban is quite clearly Hispanic looking, not Indian looking. Considering Britain's long history/relationship with India, I personally, find it far, far more believable that a pasty white British guy would come from India then an Hispanic Guy. And actually, I have known a great many pale skinned Indian men, from India, working in the Electronics field, the tan is certainly not what makes an Indian man, Indian looking
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Old November 11 2013, 11:32 PM   #218
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Then we've just met different men from India. Personally, I've never met any pale-skinned men who were born there. I've also never met any pale-skinned people with Indian names unless they happened to be women who married a man with that last name and changed their names as a result (as in a local couple I met during my years of working in live theatre; he's from India and she's not).
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Old November 12 2013, 12:02 AM   #219
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

GUYS! Khan is a product of eugenics, who knows how much tinkering with his looks the designers did! You can't look at a made in the lab experimental human and point to heritage because you just don't know what was messed around with.
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Old November 12 2013, 12:53 AM   #220
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I've found that the people who care for the "science" in Trek are the ones who understand the least about actual science. (For example, failing to recognize the difference between science writing and science fiction.)

FTL? All good. Transporters? Fine and dandy. FTL transporters? Now you are mad. It's so silly.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I know others have asked it, but you really haven't seen a lot of Trek have you?
Check my profile. I've been a Trek fan since November 1975. That's nearly 38 years, which is longer than many people on this forum have been alive.
And yet, you seem to understand so little of it. I wouldn't wave it around so much, if I were you.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!
Montalban is caucasian too. He was born in Mexico to Spanish parents.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.
No, he was not. He was white, just like Cumberbatch. They just smeared dirt on his face for the TOS episode, which apparently makes him "Indian enough" for you. I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans, too. No need to have black people, just get a bunch of white guys and put some shoe-polish on them.
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Old November 12 2013, 12:55 AM   #221
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.
No, he was not. He was white, just like Cumberbatch. They just smeared dirt on his face for the TOS episode, which makes him "Indian enough" for you. I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans, too. No need to have black people, just get a bunch of white people and put some shoe-polish on them.
That quote isn't mine.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:02 AM   #222
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Sorry. Fixed.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:20 AM   #223
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

teacake wrote: View Post
GUYS! Khan is a product of eugenics, who knows how much tinkering with his looks the designers did! You can't look at a made in the lab experimental human and point to heritage because you just don't know what was messed around with.
It's also possible that Khan and Marcus decided to make cosmetic alterations to further disguise Khan, so anyone with a good read on history would have trouble recognizing him.

All tales untold.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:23 AM   #224
Timewalker
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I've found that the people who care for the "science" in Trek are the ones who understand the least about actual science. (For example, failing to recognize the difference between science writing and science fiction.)
JFC, when did I do that?

FTL? All good. Transporters? Fine and dandy. FTL transporters? Now you are mad. It's so silly.
I don't recall being one of the people complaining about nuKhan's magic transporter. Other people did those posts.
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I know others have asked it, but you really haven't seen a lot of Trek have you?
Check my profile. I've been a Trek fan since November 1975. That's nearly 38 years, which is longer than many people on this forum have been alive.
And yet, you seem to understand so little of it. I wouldn't wave it around so much, if I were you.
If you're going to bitch at me and throw around insults because I haven't memorized these fucking movies, at least get it right as to who you're insulting.

I understand the aspects of Star Trek that I like just fine. If I've tuned out the rest, too damn bad. Get over it. There's no rule that says I have to pay attention to EVERY bit of minutiae.


Timewalker wrote: View Post
Yep. Khan and nuKhan are identical in every way. How could I possibly have missed that they're twins? Obviously I failed to notice that they're of the same ethnic background! Of course a caucasian guy with an accent that reminds me of Alan Rickman is really somebody who was born in India!
Montalban is caucasian too. He was born in Mexico to Spanish parents.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ricardo Montalban was a closer match to a character born in India than the nuKhan actor.
No, he was not. He was white, just like Cumberbatch. They just smeared dirt on his face for the TOS episode, which apparently makes him "Indian enough" for you. I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans, too. No need to have black people, just get a bunch of white guys and put some shoe-polish on them.
I strongly suggest you not mistake me for someone who is a racist. Seriously, this is crossing the line.

If Montalban's normal complexion was indeed pale, they should have done his makeup in the movie to match how he was in the TV show. Or maybe it's simply a matter of people who live for many year out of the natural sunlight (only an idiot would go out on the surface of Ceti Alpha V bareskinned) would be paler than they might otherwise be.
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Old November 12 2013, 01:29 AM   #225
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
GUYS! Khan is a product of eugenics, who knows how much tinkering with his looks the designers did! You can't look at a made in the lab experimental human and point to heritage because you just don't know what was messed around with.
It's also possible that Khan and Marcus decided to make cosmetic alterations to further disguise Khan, so anyone with a good read on history would have trouble recognizing him.

All tales untold.
Nope. They have to explain everything to us in painful detail. Why should we have to spend $12.00 to use our imaginations?
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