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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old January 15 2014, 06:26 PM   #406
Alidar Jarok
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
...and what exactly is illegal? Do you think mother Theresa was just going to give everything up?
Obstruction of Justice is illegal.

I never said Petitte was a sure HOF'er
Should Petitte be in the Hall of Fame?
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Old January 15 2014, 06:39 PM   #407
Yanks
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
...and what exactly is illegal? Do you think mother Theresa was just going to give everything up?
Obstruction of Justice is illegal.

I never said Petitte was a sure HOF'er
Should Petitte be in the Hall of Fame?
Only if a deal isn't made. How many plea bargains are made?

That was the question. If Bonds and Clemons are, then yes... but if they don't go then probably not.
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Old January 15 2014, 06:48 PM   #408
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Oh, and here is the reason that A-ROID shouldn't get his day in Federal Court...

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-have-success/

In the wake of Alex Rodriguez’s 211-game suspension being reduced to 162 games, he said that he plans to appeal the decision to federal court. This is not unexpected, but I also believe that it will be a waste of his time and his money.
Arbitration is chosen by parties for the express purpose of avoiding litigation. Courts are well aware of this. And in order to not undermine the integrity of arbitration awards, they very, very rarely overturn them. Indeed, The Federal Arbitration Act provides the grounds for review of an arbitration decision. Such review is limited to overturning awards obtained by corruption or fraud. Or where the arbitrator himself is shown to be corrupted or to have engaged in misconduct of some kind or has shown a “manifest disregard for the law.” Federal courts do not look at the facts and evidence anew and substitute their judgment for that of the arbitrator.
If there was any doubt about this at all, one merely peruse the trilogy of seminal decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court on the matter — Steelworkers v. Warrior & Gulf Navigation Co, Steelworkers v. Enterprise Car and United Paperworkers v. Misco – and they can see how tall and steep a hill A-Rod has to climb:
Federal courts should decline to review the merits of arbitration awards under collective bargaining agreements . . . The question of interpretation of the collective bargaining agreement is a question for the arbitrator, and the courts have no business overruling his construction of the contract merely because their interpretation of it is different from his.
Collective bargaining agreements are governed by the Labor Management Relations Act. Under the LMRA, review of an arbitrator’s decision is even more limited. Courts cannot look at the case anew to decide if the collective bargaining agreement was followed or if the evidence was misinterpreted. They may only overturn the decision if the arbitrator clearly abused his authority and went way, way out on a limb. It’s hard to see A-Rod making that case here, even if a 162-game suspension seems a bit . . . random. Or, more to the point: calculated to have A-Rod gone for a certain length of time as opposed to reflecting the actual severity of the offense.
So go ahead, A-Rod: sue in federal court if you want. But you will waste your money. You will likely not get any help from the union — which, when MLB made noises about appealing the favorable arbitration ruling Ryan Braun received following his 2011-12 suspension, strongly stated such a move was ill-advised — and, most importantly, you will almost certainly lose.
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Old January 15 2014, 10:15 PM   #409
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Almost all of MLB's Biogenesis evidence is twice stolen, and most of it is not the original source material. MLB paid the accomplice of the second thief (using a false name) in cash for those stolen goods. Their only substantial witness is an admitted drug dealer (who ironically may never end up in jail for dealing drugs to kids because MLB obstructed the investigation by state and federal police, which is obstruction of justice) who filed what MLB now contends are false affidavits, and only changed his story after receiving major financial and legal benefits from MLB, and who during the arbitration appeal invoked his Fifth Amendment privilege to avoid Rodriguez's cross-examination -- after not doing so during MLB's examination. They don't actually have a positive test or any physical evidence of use.

On what planet is that a competent or above-the-board investigation?

Incidentally, the arbitration opinion is a fascinating read. Rodriguez does not come across well, but it's clear that he got badly railroaded with little to no recourse because of how weak the current CBA / JDA process is in protection for players on "just cause" violations.
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Old January 16 2014, 02:16 AM   #410
Alidar Jarok
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Only if a deal isn't made. How many plea bargains are made?
Whether or not a plea bargain is made doesn't change whether or not an underlying crime was committed.

That was the question. If Bonds and Clemons are, then yes... but if they don't go then probably not.
Should Alex Rodriguez be in the Hall of Fame?
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Old January 16 2014, 02:58 AM   #411
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Should Alex Rodriguez be in the Hall of Fame?
Man, the debate on that five years after he retires is going to be insane.

Looking at the numbers, it's indisputable. JAWS puts him as the second-best shortstop of all time, behind only Honus Wagner, and fourteen full points ahead of the guy in third place, a little-known fellow named Cal Ripken, Jr., and thirty points ahead of Luke Appling, who's ninth among shortstops. (Rodriguez is the only active player in the top nine; all are in the Hall of Fame.) If he retired today, the stats argument would have him sailing in on the first ballot.

But then there's everything off the field. His name was illegally leaked off a confidential list of positives that wasn't even supposed to exist, and long before Biogenesis, MLB was already going after him because of that and the Anthony Galea stuff. (And the baseball media at large has generally bought into that narrative.)

What we have, based on the arbitration documents, is some documentary evidence that is really sketchily sourced ... but if taken at face value, while not a smoking gun, generally supports the idea that Rodriguez was using, and a witness supporting that documentary evidence that would have been absolutely annihilated in a real court case but was much tougher to impeach here because of the rules of this arbitration, particularly in that he was examined by MLB's lawyer, but when the Rodriguez side came up for cross-examination, he was allowed to take the 5th. On the other side, we have a bunch of drug tests that Rodriguez passed and his vehement public denials of use in the period in question.

I personally think Rodriguez has probably been doping all along, even back in Seattle, and I honestly had little sympathy for him until the stories came out about MLB's "investigation." But that's mostly informed by my belief that a very, very large percentage of baseball players are doping in non-detectable, or barely detectable, ways, considering one of the smartest organizations in baseball gave Jhonny Peralta $53 million a few months after he got popped, which says they think either Peralta's still using and getting away with it, or that it did not significantly contribute to his success.

So, I guess my opinion is that Rodriguez should be in the Hall, considering that at no point in the last 60 years has baseball ever been clean. Henry Aaron and Willie Mays were users of amphetamines, which have a much more demonstrable effect upon performance, and I don't see anyone campaigning for their recall from the Hall.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:58 PM   #412
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

The timing on Arod is kinda tricky here. Even with Bonds and Clemons, you can make the case that they were Hall-worthy before the steroids, and then took them to extend the career, or get crazy numbers again, or whatever.

Near as we can tell, was there EVER a 'clean' period for Arod? Has admitted to using them before, and rumors about it go all the way back to high school basically. Was he a great player that wanted more, or how much of the whole thing is chemically created to begin with? Not sure we've ever seen the real him...
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Old January 16 2014, 04:08 PM   #413
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Should Alex Rodriguez be in the Hall of Fame?
Man, the debate on that five years after he retires is going to be insane.
Great post Timby, but I think A-Rod's bed is made. Unless there is a 180 turn on the PED thing (which I don't see coming with Bonds and Clemons vote percentage going down) he's not getting in.

With the off-field crap, he has put himself in the same category as Palmero.
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Old January 16 2014, 04:29 PM   #414
Yanks
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Almost all of MLB's Biogenesis evidence is twice stolen, and most of it is not the original source material. MLB paid the accomplice of the second thief (using a false name) in cash for those stolen goods. Their only substantial witness is an admitted drug dealer (who ironically may never end up in jail for dealing drugs to kids because MLB obstructed the investigation by state and federal police, which is obstruction of justice) who filed what MLB now contends are false affidavits, and only changed his story after receiving major financial and legal benefits from MLB, and who during the arbitration appeal invoked his Fifth Amendment privilege to avoid Rodriguez's cross-examination -- after not doing so during MLB's examination. They don't actually have a positive test or any physical evidence of use.

On what planet is that a competent or above-the-board investigation?

Incidentally, the arbitration opinion is a fascinating read. Rodriguez does not come across well, but it's clear that he got badly railroaded with little to no recourse because of how weak the current CBA / JDA process is in protection for players on "just cause" violations.
I think the biggest tell all is A-Rod's choice not to testify in his own arbitration hearing. This article pretty much sums up the whole thing.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1578735

Oh, shady characters? ... how about his lawyer?

A-Rod is toast. I hope the Yankees find a way to find him in breach of contract or just cut their losses and send him on his way.

As a life-long Yankees fan, I never want to see him in pin-stripes or on the field again.
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Last edited by Yanks; January 16 2014 at 10:18 PM.
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Old January 16 2014, 05:06 PM   #415
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I hope that Alex Rodriguez wins all his lawsuits and plays this upcoming season.
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Old January 16 2014, 05:31 PM   #416
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I'm fine with the Yankees buying him out if they don't want to see him again, I just don't want them to get the Get out of Jail Free card on this. Overpay upfront to get the good years, and then no consequences for the albatross at the end, that sucks.

If they want to pay his freight to get rid of him, and have the money count, by all means go for it. if they want to weasel out of it, i hope that worst case, Arod does his year (or whatever ends up happening) and then shows up next year ready to collect on the last couple years of his deal. Big money, kill a roster spot, close to another big payday milestone, etc.

I really don't care about Arod either way, just don't like the lack of consequences on the Yankees' part. Not like this is a shock to them, and they were happy to have a juiced Arod when he was playing well. Second he starts to get old/injured, they want to pretend they're outraged and he should let them off the hook
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Old January 16 2014, 07:24 PM   #417
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

If they want to pay his freight to get rid of him, and have the money count, by all means go for it.
I like the argument.
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Old January 16 2014, 10:05 PM   #418
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Really where i'm at. Even in football with non-guaranteed contracts, you don't get completely bailed out when you make a bad deal. Especially seeing that the Yankees (in theory) benefited from the first half, they should take the hit for the 2nd half.

If they are suddenly concerned about intergrity of the game and whatnot, just write him a check for the salary (or a negotiated amount of it), and case closed. I'd bet they'd fight to keep him if he was still hitting when he got busted, but hey, that's fine, just buy him out.

I object to the bad half of the deal being swept under the rug, they should have to pay for being stupid with the money. Knew he was what he was, paid him for it and got the good years, and once he lost a step, throwing him under the rug to avoid the bad half of the deal. that sucks.
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Old January 17 2014, 01:42 AM   #419
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post

... Snip, snip, snip...


And you're just being an asshole.
Infraction for flaming. Comments to PM
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Old January 17 2014, 04:09 PM   #420
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby, whatcha think about the Cubs being rumored as one of three teams hot on the heels of Tanaka?

I would love to see him in Chicago.

Is he worth the amount of money he's sure to get?

Also, how can the Yanks get in under the "189" if they sign him? Or is he worth forgetting about that number?
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