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Old January 12 2014, 12:35 AM   #391
Alidar Jarok
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Why are you so confident?

I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts since my experience says anything is possible in a thing like this.
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Old January 12 2014, 01:38 AM   #392
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
Alex Rodriguez suspended for 162 games. He's going to take it to federal court (since MLB violated state and federal laws in its investigation of Biogenesis, and the suspension doesn't comply with the JDA).

Break out the beer and popcorn, because this is going to be juicy.

Edit: This also ensures Project 189 will survive (the Yankees are not getting Tanaka).
How do you know about Tanaka?
The Yankees' payroll is projecting in the high-160s right now without Rodriguez (there's some natural fuzziness to these things). There's a semi-plausible scenario where they could sign Tanaka to a structure that lowers his tax charge, dump most or all of Ichiro's contract, and do essentially nothing else and keep Project 189 intact, but it's only semi-plausible, and they still need to shore up the bullpen and infield unless Levine and Steinbrenner are drunk at the wheel. Without Tanaka, they're easily fitting under $189 million, which has been their goal since 2012.

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.
So MLB should be allowed to piss all over the collective bargaining agreement it negotiated, ostensibly in good faith, with the MLBPA, and obstruct state and federal investigations in the process, just because the commissioner decided he didn't like someone. Got it.
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Old January 12 2014, 02:50 AM   #393
Alidar Jarok
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yeah, you finally get the union to come around to agreeing to fight steroids through a process and then deliberately ignore the process.

Although, to be fair, I actually have no problem suspending a player through circumstantial evidence instead of a drug test, but they've done it without any process and without following their policies for what that suspension should be. I understand that it's for "conduct detrimental to Baseball" or however it's phrased, but it's still insanely arbitrary and there's a real concern it's not at all a fair process.
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Old January 12 2014, 03:53 AM   #394
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Why are you so confident?

I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts since my experience says anything is possible in a thing like this.
The arbitrator isn't known for siding with the league.

...and he still has a job.

Watch 60 minutes tomorrow night.
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Old January 12 2014, 03:55 AM   #395
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
Alex Rodriguez suspended for 162 games. He's going to take it to federal court (since MLB violated state and federal laws in its investigation of Biogenesis, and the suspension doesn't comply with the JDA).

Break out the beer and popcorn, because this is going to be juicy.

Edit: This also ensures Project 189 will survive (the Yankees are not getting Tanaka).
How do you know about Tanaka?
The Yankees' payroll is projecting in the high-160s right now without Rodriguez (there's some natural fuzziness to these things). There's a semi-plausible scenario where they could sign Tanaka to a structure that lowers his tax charge, dump most or all of Ichiro's contract, and do essentially nothing else and keep Project 189 intact, but it's only semi-plausible, and they still need to shore up the bullpen and infield unless Levine and Steinbrenner are drunk at the wheel. Without Tanaka, they're easily fitting under $189 million, which has been their goal since 2012.

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.
So MLB should be allowed to piss all over the collective bargaining agreement it negotiated, ostensibly in good faith, with the MLBPA, and obstruct state and federal investigations in the process, just because the commissioner decided he didn't like someone. Got it.
Why are you fixated on the 189 mark? They've always said it's a goal, not in cement.

I just hate the guy. I'm sure he'll play again... sadley.
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Old January 12 2014, 05:37 PM   #396
Timby
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Why are you so confident?

I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts since my experience says anything is possible in a thing like this.
The arbitrator isn't known for siding with the league.

...and he still has a job.

Watch 60 minutes tomorrow night.
You really don't get how this is happening. The independent arbitrator who was known for siding with the MLBPA, Shyam Das, was fired in 2012 after he made a ruling in Ryan Braun's favor due to a chain of custody issue (which, to be fair, is a really big fucking issue). That being said, when Rodriguez files suit in federal court, that has nothing to do with baseball's appeal process. The arbitration that Alidar was talking about will happen in front of a federal magistrate judge.

As for 60 Minutes, I have no interest in watching a show with no credibility interviewing a man with no credibility, talking about how he injected a guy with illegal substances, instead of how MLB fucked up actual investigations by law enforcement against him. Stay classy, CBS.

Oh and Rob Manfred (current COO of MLB; served as a lawyer for the owners during the strike) will be appearing on the program, too. It's a fucking hit piece.

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

How do you know about Tanaka?
The Yankees' payroll is projecting in the high-160s right now without Rodriguez (there's some natural fuzziness to these things). There's a semi-plausible scenario where they could sign Tanaka to a structure that lowers his tax charge, dump most or all of Ichiro's contract, and do essentially nothing else and keep Project 189 intact, but it's only semi-plausible, and they still need to shore up the bullpen and infield unless Levine and Steinbrenner are drunk at the wheel. Without Tanaka, they're easily fitting under $189 million, which has been their goal since 2012.

And I hope the federal judge upholds, then MLB suspends his ass for life.
So MLB should be allowed to piss all over the collective bargaining agreement it negotiated, ostensibly in good faith, with the MLBPA, and obstruct state and federal investigations in the process, just because the commissioner decided he didn't like someone. Got it.
Why are you fixated on the 189 mark? They've always said it's a goal, not in cement.

I just hate the guy. I'm sure he'll play again... sadley.
OK, you said you hated Bonds because he left the Pirates, so what's your beef with Rodriguez, who will retire as one of the best hitters in history?

As for 189, the luxury tax reset / amnesty is a one-year-only proposition. If the Yankees don't get under $189 million in 2014, they don't get the 17.5% bill, but will instead continue to pay the maximum luxury tax. This is the only year that they can get the reset button pushed. That's the whole reason for Project 189, and that's why Hal Steinbrenner is hellbent on getting there.
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Old January 12 2014, 07:23 PM   #397
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I was thinking he had some knowledge of how the Baseball arbitration process worked. I guess not. My own knowledge is somewhat limited, unfortunately, so I'm generally choosing not to comment rather than comment in a halfbaked and uninformed way. I think it's clear that it'll see the "inside of a court" in the sense that a magistrate will rule on a preliminary injunction delaying any suspension for the time being (I'm not sure if it'll be done by briefs or if there will be appearances in court). My own view is the preliminary injunction will be granted.

The only thing I was unsure about is whether Rodriguez would have to try to exhaust his remedies through the arbitration process before a court could rule that there are contract-based (or antitrust-based) flaws in the process or if he can simply attack it collaterally right away. My instinct, because arbitration is heavily favored in federal courts, is that he has to try arbitration first.
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Old January 12 2014, 07:56 PM   #398
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Ordinarily, when it goes to court, the court would only be allowed to consider the original arbitration process itself, as opposed to rehearing the facts of the case (because it would be an attack on the arbitration), but Rodriguez is going scorched earth and will sue for a bunch of other shit like defamation and tortious interference to get around that.

As for the injunction, it would probably be granted. As I said earlier, the magistrate will have to decide whether Rodriguez faces irreparable harm, and has a substantial likelihood of success on the merits. I don't know about the merits, but it's very easy to make the argument that he faces irreparable harm from the suspension (since he has huge incentive clauses in his contract).

Honestly, I'm glad that Rodriguez is going scorched earth; aside from money, he has nothing to lose. And MLB has a lot to lose -- they could get enjoined from suspending him, obviously, but they did some really bad stuff here that Rodriguez now gets to air in public over the several next months to years. So as with all civil litigation, it's about creating leverage.

Federal court is interested in this (and this will end up in a courtroom) because it's a labor case where a powerful corporation conspired to damage the career, reputation and life of an employee (and there's a really uncomfortably close relationship between the Steinbrenners and Selig, which raises the question of collusion). The grounds that they've chosen for punishment are built on speculation, completely out of whack with what they gave to others for no reason aside from a personal vendetta and the illegally obtained evidence they claim to have that directly interfered with state and federal level criminal investigations.

Courts have been itching for an excuse to revoke MLB's antitrust exemption (and this is a really interesting case for that), and I don't get why MLB willing to damage its reputation, brand and public goodwill over a witch hunt.
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Old January 12 2014, 08:06 PM   #399
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I won't make personal accusations, but it's clear you are both bias to A-Rod. Funny how EVERYONE but A-Rod took the punishment. Guess they ALL were just scared. They ALL had a case and .... whatever. Jesus, you both forget this is one of, if not THE strongest union in all of sports.

Give me one good reason a federal judge would accept something that went through arbitration that both parties agreed to abide by? One that historically sides with and is there FOR the players?

Guess you guys know best.

We'll see what happens.

I think you guys are more scared of the Yankees not having to pay his salary this year. Or do you want his broken down body in the line-up every day?

Oh, and Bonds and A-Rod have always been about themselves. Both have lied through their teeth, and I'm just sick of it. Braun is in that category as well. I also understand chain of custody and it's importance in the process. I served as a Master at Arms in the military for a few years.

MICHAEL WEINER: Weiner, the players' union's executive director, said Monday that the union agreed with A-Rod's decision to fight the suspension. Weiner also said the union will "defend his rights vigorously." But Weiner told Sirius XM Tuesday that he "recommended" that Rodriguez accept a suspension of a certain length. He did not specify the number publicly.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...guez-1.5868926

Why make that recommendation if A-Rod has a case? That sound to me like the evidence CLEARLY supports MLB's case.

-Text messages obtained by 60 MINUTES between him and Rodriguez indicate that at times they communicated daily about the substances the slugger took on his “protocol”
http://www.newsday.com/entertainment...-rod-1.6779713

I'll be watching 60 minutes...

If this makes a courtroom, it's only because A-Rod has gazillions of dollars.
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Old January 12 2014, 09:08 PM   #400
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

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I won't make personal accusations, but it's clear you are both bias to A-Rod.
I don't have a dog in the race, given that I'm a Cubs fan and really don't give two hoots about how the AL East shakes down. What I do have an issue with is MLB pissing all over the Joint Drug Agreement and the Basic Agreement, and employing illegal means of gathering evidence in a witch hunt.

Funny how EVERYONE but A-Rod took the punishment. Guess they ALL were just scared. They ALL had a case and .... whatever. Jesus, you both forget this is one of, if not THE strongest union in all of sports.
This really isn't true. MLB essentially broke the union during the 2002 collective bargaining process, and since then the MLBPA has gotten more and more toothless. The only more ineffective union in professional sports is the NBPA.

Give me one good reason a federal judge would accept something that went through arbitration that both parties agreed to abide by? One that historically sides with and is there FOR the players?
Because Rodriguez isn't appealing the arbitration; he's filing suit against Major League Baseball for defamation of character, tortious interference, and likely a whole bunch of other offenses, as well. Again, this is a case that has a bunch of far-reaching implications for labor law. A huge powerful corporation (with a really convenient antitrust exemption) conspired to damage the career, reputation and life of an employee, and did so employing illegally obtained "evidence," and in the process interfered with actual, real, legitimate investigations being performed by state and federal police. That is a huge problem. (And a crime.)

As much as we like to talk about how cheating in a sport is not the same as a criminal activity, obtaining illegal products, selling illegal products, having a business designed to sell such products under the guise of a legit health business, etc., is actually a matter of public consequence. MLB decided that instead of using whatever they had on Biogenesis and saying, "Hey, authorities! You might want to check this out and lock this guy away pronto," and handling their athletes under the parameters they already have, they used it as a chance to rake their own employees over the coals and use their own form of a justice system while butchering any chance the real police could do anything about the larger issue. That's beyond petty. It's dangerous.

And again, Rodriguez never failed an actual MLB drug test. The Joint Drug Agreement says that for a first positive test, he would sit for 50 games. So banning him for 162 games plus any potential postseason is effectively saying that the Joint Drug Agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I think you guys are more scared of the Yankees not having to pay his salary this year. Or do you want his broken down body in the line-up every day?
We've been through this conversation a half-dozen times; Rodriguez was the fourth-best hitter in the Yankees' lineup last year, so it's better for them if he plays. As for being "scared," no, I really don't give a shit, I'm just intensely amused by all the dumpster-diving bullshit they've done as part of Project 189.

Oh, and Bonds and A-Rod have always been about themselves. Both have lied through their teeth, and I'm just sick of it. Braun is in that category as well.
Some professional athletes are jerks, sky blue, water wet, etc.

Why make that recommendation if A-Rod has a case? That sound to me like the evidence CLEARLY supports MLB's case.
Because Michael Weiner was a spineless shitlord who sold out a large chunk of his constituents during the negotiations over the 2012 Basic Agreement.


I'll be watching 60 minutes...
Have fun watching an MLB-sanctioned hit piece.

If this makes a courtroom, it's only because A-Rod has gazillions of dollars.
It'll make a courtroom because contrary to what you might think, getting evidence illegally and smearing the shit out of your own employees is not generally seen as kosher by federal labor judges.

The sad thing is that "victory" here would be Rodriguez facing no consequences, where in a sane world we'd be talking about whether or not Bud Selig goes to prison. (Of course, a sane world would also not force unions to accept arbitration clauses in a CBA, which are anti-worker garbage.)

And if you think it's mere coincidence that giving Rodriguez a lengthy suspension which isn't justified by any clause in the Basic Agreement also allows the Yankees to save tens of millions of dollars on their payroll, I have some swampland in Florida I'd love to sell you.
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Old January 14 2014, 05:57 PM   #401
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Well, Choke-ROID has filed suit against everyone but my mother...

What was illegal about acquiring the evidence? "Smearing"???? I believe A-Rod did all the public whining etc before 60 minutes came out. They actually waited until the ruling.

If the MLB Union has lost some "teeth" when come to protecting lying scumbag PED users then so be it.

The fact remains, A-Rod chose not to defend himself at his own arbitration hearing. He had the opportunity, but chose to his the radio circuit.

He's a lying sack of $hit. He lied back in 2003 and never stopped. This is ALL about him clinging to some stupid notion that he will be in the hall of fame some day.

No tears shed here for this POS. None.

I hope he spend 100 million and loses.

I don't care that he was the 4th best player in the line-up. I don't care that Cano was the best hitter in the line-up.

I don't miss either.
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Old January 14 2014, 06:34 PM   #402
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Well, Choke-ROID has filed suit against everyone but my mother...

What was illegal about acquiring the evidence? "Smearing"???? I believe A-Rod did all the public whining etc before 60 minutes came out. They actually waited until the ruling.
I've already spelled it out for you multiple times, but I'll say it all over again:

- MLB's senior vice president for investigations, Dan Mullin, seduced a Biogenesis nurse for information on Rodriguez
- MLB purchased Biogenesis documents that were known to be stolen; Florida investigators warned MLB to stay away from them. In purchasing those stolen documents, MLB committed obstruction of justice and and caused the Florida and federal investigations against Bosch and his clinic to fall apart.
- MLB spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase additional evidence, which anyone can tell you isn't exactly a reputable way of doing business.
- MLB has been blackmailing Bosch; they ensured his cooperation by saying they'd hand over everything they have to the feds, and stop paying his legal bills, if he didn't say what he did about Rodriguez.

And the 60 Minutes report was a fucking joke and every bit the hit piece I said it was going to be ... it was MLB jacking off into its own mouth. The whole thing was obviously timed to coincide with the arbitrator's decision (and the MLBPA is furious about it), Bosch's attempt at fake crying was hilarious, and he has no credibility whatsoever.

The best part was that he had no remorse for anything and admitted that he'd still be doing the exact same thing if he didn't get caught THEN following it up with the worst attempt at fake crying I've ever seen. He talked out of both sides of his mouth the entire time.

He claims he's been working with players for 10 years, yet only Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez get mentioned by name -- a guy who is out of baseball, and a guy who will get the Bonds treatment. None of the players already suspended get a mention.

Then he implies that PED usage is widespread, and what he's doing is leveling the playing field. If he's at all credible, then the logical takeaway is that the league has a massive problem on its hands, but 60 Minutes ends the report by sucking Selig's dick and saying he oversees the toughest anti-doping program in sports (which is false on its face; that's the NFL and the Olympics), and he is very very tough on them (even though baseball didn't test for drugs ten years ago). Don't look behind this curtain!

If you think that MLB propping up a drug dealer (MLB has been working in back channels to get Bosch out of legal jams, and has also been paying his bills -- thus far, he's gotten a cool $2 million from MLB) to go after its own employees is a good thing, then I have no idea what planet you're living on, because that's a chilling precedent for labor rights and what it says employers can do when they decide they just don't like someone.

Why negotiate a CBA and a Joint Drug Agreement if you aren't going to abide by them?

Edit: Joe Posnanski has an excellent article summarizing why 60 Minutes' piece was a hilariously bad joke.

If the MLB Union has lost some "teeth" when come to protecting lying scumbag PED users then so be it.
The MLBPA has lost far more power than that, and it's not a good thing for the game.

I mean, okay, Alex Rodriguez is dirty as fuck, and he also gives people a million reasons to dislike him because he's an asshole. That doesn't excuse any of MLB's behavior, which has been wildly inappropriate from Day 1 because of Selig's zeal to nail Rodriguez to the wall. If MLB had gone through the proper processes (processes it agreed to), this wouldn't be a complete fucking farce. They didn't, though, which makes this entire "scandal" a joke.

I don't care that he was the 4th best player in the line-up. I don't care that Cano was the best hitter in the line-up.

I don't miss either.
"These guys are really good baseball players, but I'm glad they aren't on this old, shitty team I root for even though they'd make it better."
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Old January 15 2014, 06:15 AM   #403
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I love the laughing pooch.
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Old January 15 2014, 12:57 PM   #404
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I just can't sort out all the double standards. Arod is a cheating sack of shit. On the other hand, Pettite is a sure Hall of Famer. Pettite ADMITTED to taking PEDs, did he not? Of course, like any good cheater, it only happened the once, and was for a good reason.

Cano sucks, don't want him on the team. Then again, Brian Roberts is going to be a beast, even though he hasn't played more than a 1/4 season in 5 years.

Figure it out and get back to us, getting dizzy from the flip-flopping.
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Old January 15 2014, 06:20 PM   #405
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Well, Choke-ROID has filed suit against everyone but my mother...

What was illegal about acquiring the evidence? "Smearing"???? I believe A-Rod did all the public whining etc before 60 minutes came out. They actually waited until the ruling.
I've already spelled it out for you multiple times, but I'll say it all over again:

- MLB's senior vice president for investigations, Dan Mullin, seduced a Biogenesis nurse for information on Rodriguez
- MLB purchased Biogenesis documents that were known to be stolen; Florida investigators warned MLB to stay away from them. In purchasing those stolen documents, MLB committed obstruction of justice and and caused the Florida and federal investigations against Bosch and his clinic to fall apart.
- MLB spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase additional evidence, which anyone can tell you isn't exactly a reputable way of doing business.
- MLB has been blackmailing Bosch; they ensured his cooperation by saying they'd hand over everything they have to the feds, and stop paying his legal bills, if he didn't say what he did about Rodriguez.
...and what exactly is illegal? Do you think mother Theresa was just going to give everything up?

I commend MLB for going after these cheaters.

Whether it's palatable or not, crap like this is done all the time. Not sure why all of a sudden you have issue with this.

And the 60 Minutes report was a fucking joke and every bit the hit piece I said it was going to be ... it was MLB jacking off into its own mouth. The whole thing was obviously timed to coincide with the arbitrator's decision (and the MLBPA is furious about it), Bosch's attempt at fake crying was hilarious, and he has no credibility whatsoever.

The best part was that he had no remorse for anything and admitted that he'd still be doing the exact same thing if he didn't get caught THEN following it up with the worst attempt at fake crying I've ever seen. He talked out of both sides of his mouth the entire time.

He claims he's been working with players for 10 years, yet only Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez get mentioned by name -- a guy who is out of baseball, and a guy who will get the Bonds treatment. None of the players already suspended get a mention.
Never claimed Bosch's is a stand up guy. He WAS getting paid by A-Rod and they WERE texting like crazy. Guess that doesn't matter because you think he's sleazy.

Then he implies that PED usage is widespread, and what he's doing is leveling the playing field. If he's at all credible, then the logical takeaway is that the league has a massive problem on its hands, but 60 Minutes ends the report by sucking Selig's dick and saying he oversees the toughest anti-doping program in sports (which is false on its face; that's the NFL and the Olympics), and he is very very tough on them (even though baseball didn't test for drugs ten years ago). Don't look behind this curtain!
Well, you see how good Manny was after he got caught...

Funny, you bang him for not doing anything 10 years ago, and then slam him for doing what he could while battling the players union.

WTF???

If you think that MLB propping up a drug dealer (MLB has been working in back channels to get Bosch out of legal jams, and has also been paying his bills -- thus far, he's gotten a cool $2 million from MLB) to go after its own employees is a good thing, then I have no idea what planet you're living on, because that's a chilling precedent for labor rights and what it says employers can do when they decide they just don't like someone.
All legal and, knock - knock, MLB needed Bosch for this fight.

Why negotiate a CBA and a Joint Drug Agreement if you aren't going to abide by them?
What part are they NOT abiding too?

Really? Are you suggesting that the only way play can "get caught" is by popping on a piss test?

A-Rod and paid chronies are supposed to be allowed to obstruct an investigation... because he didn't pop positive on a piss test?

WTF are you saying here?

The MLBPA has lost far more power than that, and it's not a good thing for the game.
Bull, name one area that their supposed loss of power is "bad for the game"...

I mean, okay, Alex Rodriguez is dirty as fuck, and he also gives people a million reasons to dislike him because he's an asshole. That doesn't excuse any of MLB's behavior, which has been wildly inappropriate from Day 1 because of Selig's zeal to nail Rodriguez to the wall. If MLB had gone through the proper processes (processes it agreed to), this wouldn't be a complete fucking farce. They didn't, though, which makes this entire "scandal" a joke.
This really has NOTHING to do with him being a jerk. As far as the artitor is concerned, A-Rod could beat his mother on weekends and it would have NO BEARING on this case.

Again, what "proper processes" are you referring to? MLB aquired evidence and they brought it into the process.

What's your process? ....

MLB - "Excuse me Mr A-Rod, we heard you might have accossitations with a company called Biogenisus, is this true"?

A-Rod - "No not really"

MLB - OK, didn't think so - despite all the FUCKING EVIDENCE we have.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
I just can't sort out all the double standards. Arod is a cheating sack of shit. On the other hand, Pettite is a sure Hall of Famer. Pettite ADMITTED to taking PEDs, did he not? Of course, like any good cheater, it only happened the once, and was for a good reason.

Cano sucks, don't want him on the team. Then again, Brian Roberts is going to be a beast, even though he hasn't played more than a 1/4 season in 5 years.

Figure it out and get back to us, getting dizzy from the flip-flopping.
Well, A-Rod IS a CSOS.

I never said Petitte was a sure HOF'er

Never said Cano sucks

I said robert COULD be lighting in a bottle

And you're just being an asshole.
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We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture.”
- Evolution of the Solar System, NASA 1976, H. Alfvén & G, Arrhenius, p. 257.
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