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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old January 8 2014, 03:34 PM   #331
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Tom Servo wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Schilling - Nope, 216 wins isn't enough.

Mussina - Yup, I think so.
If Mussina gets in, Schilling gets in easily. One of the best PS pitchers of all time.

Not saying Mussina shouldn't get in, but Schillings incredible postseason numbers makes up for his lower career wins totals.
Thanks for bringing up the post season.

It's my understanding that post season numbers/performances shouldn't be considered?

Don't know for sure, just putting it out there.
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Old January 8 2014, 04:05 PM   #332
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Why on Earth would you say that?

Postseason statistics don't apply to the regular season awards (MVP, Cy Young, etc.), because those votes are taken prior to the beginning of the playoffs, but postseason performance absolutely applies to Hall of Fame merits, and I have no idea why anyone would think otherwise. Shit, a single postseason performance is the only case people make for Morris' candidacy.

In any event, even if it didn't, Schilling is clearly over the line based on his regular-season statistics alone.
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Old January 8 2014, 08:49 PM   #333
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Why on Earth would you say that?

Postseason statistics don't apply to the regular season awards (MVP, Cy Young, etc.), because those votes are taken prior to the beginning of the playoffs, but postseason performance absolutely applies to Hall of Fame merits, and I have no idea why anyone would think otherwise. Shit, a single postseason performance is the only case people make for Morris' candidacy.

In any event, even if it didn't, Schilling is clearly over the line based on his regular-season statistics alone.
Breathe in, breathe out...

Just asking for clarity. I'm not a walking baseball reference manual like you.

So Andy Pettite is in then.
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Old January 8 2014, 08:58 PM   #334
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

One more poke at the Ortiz discussion: does Frank Thomas getting an easy walk-in affect the discussion? Play 19 years, but pretty sparingly at 1B after the first few. He was, in reality, a DH that just occasionally played 1B. Less than 1/3rd of his games, if I'm doing the numbers right, and less than 6 full seasons using a full 162-game average. He was a DH.

Ortiz is more a 'pure' DH than a bad 1B that eventually migrated, but does Thomas getting in on the first try show that that's waivering a bit? Or does playing a BAD 1B for a small amount of your career get you DH immunity for the rest? Can't find any defensive metrics that show him as anything other than terrible in the field.

Anyway, just wanted to have that discussion, as a DH finally made it in, even if we're pretending he's not really a DH...

And yeah, that's obviously wrong, post-season counts. Small sample size, but when you are STELLAR in that sample, it can't hurt. Schilling's PS numbers are basically best ever there, he was just another pitcher in those games, and elevated on the big stage. Not that he was bad in the regular season, just epic when it counted. If you're not a walking baseball reference, GOOGLE works pretty well. First result is, in fact, baseball-reference.com , which is where we're getting these stats.

Pettite is interesting. Not sure about either way, at first glance. At the very least, his post-season stats don't force the issue like Schilling. 19-11 with a 3.82 ERA isn't quite the 11-2 Schilling has. And Schilling's numbers are only that bad because of Game 1 of the 2004 ALCS where as you recall he had a minor ankle issue. Had experimental surgery and came back to win in Game 6, though...

Anyway, back to Pettite. Long career, 256 and 153. Cy Young votes 5 times, got 2nd once but never won. Good stats, narrative around the 96-2000 Yankees. Maybe? I'm torn between saying yes and saying he's one of those borderline GOOD players that's not HOF-worthy. Only won 20 games twice. Was a good #2 or #3 pitcher for a lot of those years. As a Yankees fan, did you LIKE him, or did you ever think you were really seeing one of the best ever? What were the EPIC games? Tough to define, I guess. When Pedro was good, for example, you knew it even at the time, he's a 1st ballot guy, no questions. Just electric. With guys that have longevity, it's harder to sort out the great stats from the diluted counting stats at times.

Definitely not black and white yes or no, though. Post-season or not. He was a .626 win percentage guy in the regular season, and a .633 guy in the post season, so just more consistently good than epic or anything.

Sorta my problem with Biggio. Hall of Very Good, and got some of the magic milestones. But because he played for a million years. Nice player, you'd be happy to have him, but ever think you were seeing greatness? Or just pretty good for a long time? Fans want to dilute the HoF too much, kinda happy the voters are pricks and don't let as many in. Even if they screw it up at times, or cave over the years.
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Last edited by Scout101; January 8 2014 at 09:12 PM.
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Old January 8 2014, 09:13 PM   #335
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and Frank Thomas all made it in. No-brainer for all three of them, IMO. Surprised but pleased to see Thomas get in on his first ballot. Apparently Craig Biggio came up just two votes short of making it.

Scout101, if you ask me I do think that Frank Thomas' getting in will help Ortiz's case, especially if Ortiz sticks around for one more season after this one and gets over 500 home runs. I'm pretty sure he'd actually have a shot at surpassing 500 this season if he hadn't missed half of 2012.
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Old January 8 2014, 09:48 PM   #336
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Biggo getting snubbed is bullshit. (As is Mussina only getting 20 percent of the votes, what the hell.) Schilling's drop is pretty crazy, too, but I have to imagine his off-the-field issues over the past year had a part in that.

And Bonds and Clemens slid way backwards, which means they're going to have problems in the future. Ugh.

Edit: Holy shit, Armando Benitez, Kenny Rogers and Jacque fucking Jones all got a vote. I demand to know who did that and their BBWAA membership be immediately revoked.

Last edited by Timby; January 8 2014 at 10:05 PM.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:09 PM   #337
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Biggo getting snubbed is bullshit
Agreed. After last year, I was positive he'd make it this year. Maddux and Glavine are no-brainers for a first ballot. Thomas? eh, ok.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:35 PM   #338
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I don't think there's any argument that Thomas is a Hall of Famer, but I don't think he would have made it in on the first ballot if it weren't for the PED thing, which helped him, possibly a lot. A lot of people who ordinarily would have been suspicious about Frank Thomas remembered him screaming from the rooftops about the issue when nobody gave a shit and was all "dingers lol," he was submitting his own piss for tests to an independent lab as early as like 1995, and he was also the only player who willingly cooperated with the Mitchell Report against the advice of his own union. In an era of "did he or didn't he," Thomas is probably the one guy who you can say, without a doubt, was not a steroid user.

He also avoided the usual discussions about being a one-dimensional slugger who was a horrible runner / defender and played the majority of his career at DH (as Scout pointed out), which are discussions that I think would have pushed him off first ballot if they came up.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:40 PM   #339
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

So based on these results, Biggio will be elected next year and Piazza in two or three years. Looking at those who are eligible in the next few years, its going to be interesting times indeed for the Hall of Fame.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:50 PM   #340
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
He also avoided the usual discussions about being a one-dimensional slugger who was a horrible runner / defender and played the majority of his career at DH (as Scout pointed out), which are discussions that I think would have pushed him off first ballot if they came up.
Yep, personally I think the DH is a silly rule, but the fact that he hit the ball so well is a testament to his abilities. Thomas should be a HoF'er but not on a first ballot.
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Old January 8 2014, 11:20 PM   #341
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Don't pitchers only get considered on their pitching? So why can't a DH be judged solely on his hitting?
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Old January 8 2014, 11:32 PM   #342
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I don't get the '1st ballot' portion of the argument. They either ARE or AREN'T HoF players. If they get in on the 15th ballot, to what extent do they really belong at all? Are there rankings in the Hall for 1st ballot guys vs 7th ballot guys? Of course not. It's BBWAA nonsense and politics.

If he belongs in, vote for him. If not, don't. Don't decide to vote for him, but not on the first ballot. Or cave to inertia and vote in guys that don't belong on their 12th try...
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Old January 8 2014, 11:51 PM   #343
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

It's because baseball writers, far more so than sportswriters in any other sport (though sports journalism is a joke, generally speaking), are completely up their ass about the "Americana" and the history of the game. For fuck's sake, Abner Doubleday is still regarded as the father of baseball despite the fact that it isn't true. The same holds true for the Hall of Fame: The BBWAA treats it as a sacred cathedral, instead of "historical museum of the best who played the game," which is why you get assholes who turn in blank ballots because they don't want too many people in there, the pricks like Joe Morgan who actively campaign against people at their position getting in (like Ryne Sandberg), and so on and so forth.

Were you one of the very best to play the game at your position for a prolonged period of time (or, in Craig Biggio's case, were you an absolute monster at three drastically different positions for a prolonged period of time)? Congratulations, you're in the Hall of Fame.
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Old January 8 2014, 11:58 PM   #344
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

This isn't Biggio's first time on the ballot, is it? I know very little about the HOF process, but I'm curious as to how many times (if any) Biggio has been on the ballot before now.

Also: For a player who has been with many teams, who determines what team they will go in the HOF as? For instance, Mike Piazza has played with the Dodgers, Mets, Padres and A's. If he gets in, under which team will it be?
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Old January 9 2014, 12:04 AM   #345
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
This isn't Biggio's first time on the ballot, is it? I know very little about the HOF process, but I'm curious as to how many times (if any) Biggio has been on the ballot before now.
This is his second.

Also: For a player who has been with many teams, who determines what team they will go in the HOF as? For instance, Mike Piazza has played with the Dodgers, Mets, Padres and A's. If he gets in, under which team will it be?
The Hall of Fame's management decides the team (which was changed about ten or eleven years ago; previously the player decided). This came up back in 2010 when Andre Dawson (king of the borderline candidates, and I say that as a lifelong Cubs fan) was elected and the Hall decided to put him in as an Expo, despite his stated desire to go in as a Cub. Dawson was very unhappy about that, and he publicly spoke of that displeasure (to the point of wanting to wear a Cubs hat at the ceremony) but apparently the Hall management convinced him to not rebel against THE SACRED CATHEDRAL.
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