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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old December 9 2013, 08:31 PM   #241
Timby
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post

I've always been a little aurprised that Morris isn't in yet. Of course I thought Jim Rice should have made it years ago.
Morris isn't in because he has absolutely no case. Going back to what I said in January:

Morris is an absolutely terrible Hall of Fame candidate. JAWS has him as the 167th best starting pitching candidate for the Hall. Let's say that method is massively unkind to Morris and he's actually in the 60s; only one person from 60-69 is in, and all but Eddie Cicotte are eligible. He'd instantly become one of the worst pitchers in the Hall. I'd be hard-pressed to even call him a borderline candidate; he belongs in the Hall of Good.

The following pitchers were better than Jack Morris, statistically speaking, in roughly the same era and didn't have a prayer at getting into the Hall: Dave Stieb, David Cone, Kevin Brown, Orel Hershiser, Brett Saberhagen, David Wells, Kevin Appier. I can't think of a single statistical argument for Morris in the Hall.
The only case Jack Morris has for him is a bunch of feel-good platitudes and a single game that was more due to shitty baserunning than anything else. Remove "Game 7" from the equation and what do you have? A decent pitcher who racked up a lot of innings but was never even the best pitcher on his own team, to say nothing of being the best in baseball.

Jim Rice only made it in because he hung around on the ballot a lot longer than anyone expected to, and the Red Sox started a massive PR campaign to get him elected, primarily through Dan Shaughnessy, since they have their arm so far up his ass they can move a finger and make him sing "Yankee Doodle Dandy" on command. That's another guy who really doesn't belong -- "most feared hitter," my ass. Barry Bonds was intentionally walked 43 more times in a single season than Jim Rice was in his whole career. J-Rice is 191st in career intentional walks, tied with legends of the game like Geoff Jenkins and Clay Dalrymple, and they didn't even start counting them until the mid-1950s, so there are plenty of more guys that would be ahead of Rice if their numbers weren't lost to time. The most feared hitter of Rice's era was George Brett or Mike Schmidt, not Rice.

Yanks wrote: View Post
Of course, the nation is forced to mourn the death of Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela ...
The fuck does that have to do with anything?

So you're in the court that performance and only performance should determine if you make it or not?

Like I said, I really don't know. But if someone has to be punished, then it most certainly shouldn't just be the players.
Let's remember a couple of things: Mandatory drug testing didn't begin in MLB until 2004, meaning until that time, none of these substances people may or may not have been on were banned by baseball. Second, baseball has never been a drug-free sport. Again, as I said, amphetamines were all over baseball as far back as the '50s -- and those do have a confirmed, measurable effect upon player performance, as opposed to steroids.

The BBWAA's position on '90s players is driven by two things: Holding onto this wistful idea of "baseball the way it should have been" (I'm looking at you, Costas, you dumb son of a bitch), and resentment against statistical movements like SABR which they still believe is composed of a bunch of dudes in their mom's basement.

From where I stand, Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter ever to play the game of professional baseball, and for him to be excluded from the Hall of Fame is absurd, particularly given that he never tested positive once in his life and went to court over steroid usage, and got off on everything outside of giving an evasive answer to a grand jury). When it comes to other guys being excluded, it's on a case-by-case basis: Rafael Palmeiro used, but his numbers are nowhere near a Hall of Fame career. Same with Mark McGwire, whose career was entirely too short. What's really bad is that guys like Craig Biggio, who were never linked in any way to steroids, are getting lumped in with guys like McGwire.

And I agree that off-the-field issues shouldn't affect a candidacy; for example, Curt Schilling is a massive piece of shit, but clearly over the line just based on his regular season work, to say nothing of him being the greatest starting pitcher in modern postseason history. That's not wins bullshit or bloody sock voodoo, he's just the best there's been by a pretty wide margin since the deadball era, when the postseason was a much different thing. He has the actual case that dumb people think Jack Morris has.

Last edited by Timby; December 9 2013 at 08:56 PM.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:45 PM   #242
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Personally, I think it's a tragedy that hitters are assumed to be the biggest culprits when the evidence (and logic) suggests that pitchers used them more often. Steroids were more effective in helping you heal and recover from injuries, meaning that it disproportionately affected pitchers (who tear up their arms and then recover between games) and old people. For the latter category, I do think many of these hitters who ended up having a late career surge probably would have had their numbers tail off a bit. I don't think that can be ignored. It's why my view is that candidates who would otherwise be on the bubble and have definite ties to steroids should not get in. But this guilt by association for pretty much every strong hitter in the last twenty years is absolutely ridiculous and should have no place in Baseball.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:54 PM   #243
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

And, as I've said many times, the "steroids = Magic Dinger Juice" argument completely dissolves and fails to hold water when you remember that noted power hitters like Neifi Perez, Melky Cabrera, Marlon Byrd and Eliézer Alfonzo have all gotten popped.
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Old December 9 2013, 09:54 PM   #244
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Roy Halladay retires.
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Old December 9 2013, 10:07 PM   #245
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
And, as I've said many times, the "steroids = Magic Dinger Juice" argument completely dissolves and fails to hold water when you remember that noted power hitters like Neifi Perez, Melky Cabrera, Marlon Byrd and Eliézer Alfonzo have all gotten popped.
Don't forget the greatest pitcher of all time was also juicing up -- Ryan Franklin.
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Old December 9 2013, 11:53 PM   #246
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Aragorn wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
And, as I've said many times, the "steroids = Magic Dinger Juice" argument completely dissolves and fails to hold water when you remember that noted power hitters like Neifi Perez, Melky Cabrera, Marlon Byrd and Eliézer Alfonzo have all gotten popped.
Don't forget the greatest pitcher of all time was also juicing up -- Ryan Franklin.
In Franklin's case, I think whatever he was taking was magic dinger juice for opposing batters.
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Old December 10 2013, 12:49 AM   #247
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Wouldn't mind seeing the Braves get Smajrierjtjdnadfgnza. Our bullpen could use a little help.
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Old December 10 2013, 12:59 AM   #248
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
He has the actual case that dumb people think Jack Morris has.
You're really portraying yourself as an asshole.
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Old December 10 2013, 02:26 AM   #249
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
He has the actual case that dumb people think Jack Morris has.
You're really portraying yourself as an asshole.
Wow, it's almost that there are things things called ... wait ... shit ... oh, that's right: Facts. Sorry.

Edit: What is the case for Jack Morris? Tell me why he should be in.

Last edited by Timby; December 10 2013 at 05:51 PM.
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Old December 10 2013, 11:44 AM   #250
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yeah, it's not a gold star, it's the Hall of Fame. Looking at his career, I just don't see it. Never won Cy Young, MVP, career average of 16-12 with a 3.90 ERA. Only won 20 games twice in a period where it wasn't that rare, and didn't have crazy stats or dominating years then (or other years). Mostly just counting stats that added up because he played 18 years.

Not saying he was BAD, just not HOF-worthy. A Hall of Very Good candidate, I suppose.

Got an opposing argument? What's his literal claim to fame, why should he be in?
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Old December 10 2013, 05:51 PM   #251
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Got an opposing argument? What's his literal claim to fame, why should he be in?
More specifically, make an argument that doesn't include "Game 7."

Edit: Gammons has Rakuten's president on the record as saying he won't post Tanaka.

Last edited by Timby; December 10 2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old December 10 2013, 06:33 PM   #252
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

1 game /= HOF career. Plenty of players have had a transcendant game, even in the playoffs, it doesn't make them HOF-worthy. Really looking for GENERATIONAL talent. Like, when you think of the late-80's/early-90's, who were the feared guys? You aren't going to mention Morris. You could have a write-up of that big game, but you don't need a bust on a plaque for it.

Otherwise, the thing is TOO inclusive, and then why bother?

As for Tanaka? Who knows, lots of bluster there. That about 40M fell out of what he would have been posted for certainly takes the incentive away from the Japanese team, though. Even then, with a 20M max bid, there will be 15-20 teams that all agree to that, so Yankees don't have any advantage there, and can't hide payroll in the posting fee. It'll end up being a 6/100M or so sort of deal on top of the posting fee, give or take, and anyone can bid. The big market teams took advantage of hiding the money, which is why the smaller teams wanted it this way. Yankees can certainly bid, but not exclusively, and if they win, it'll count against the Luxury Tax. And it only takes one team to be stupid with the money (Seattle, Dodgers) for Yankees to be left in the cold there.
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Old December 10 2013, 06:37 PM   #253
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Scout101 wrote: View Post
1 game /= HOF career. Plenty of players have had a transcendant game, even in the playoffs, it doesn't make them HOF-worthy. Really looking for GENERATIONAL talent. Like, when you think of the late-80's/early-90's, who were the feared guys? You aren't going to mention Morris. You could have a write-up of that big game, but you don't need a bust on a plaque for it.
You're preaching to the choir. This is what I said on this page:

The following pitchers were better than Jack Morris, statistically speaking, in roughly the same era and didn't have a prayer at getting into the Hall: Dave Stieb, David Cone, Kevin Brown, Orel Hershiser, Brett Saberhagen, David Wells, Kevin Appier.
I don't see anyone saying Kevin Brown or Kevin Appier were HoF pitchers (and justifiably so).
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Old December 11 2013, 03:34 AM   #254
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Ríu ríu, chíu wrote: View Post
Yeah, I posted about it a day ago.

Today, he took out a full page thank you ad to Phillies fans. Doc Halladay deserves to retire as a Blue Jay, but I'm proud of his time in Philadelphia as well. That man is a class act.
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Old December 11 2013, 05:10 AM   #255
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
He has the actual case that dumb people think Jack Morris has.
You're really portraying yourself as an asshole.


Let's keep the commentary over the plate and not go high and inside, eh?

This ends your 7th inning mod comments. Play ball!
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