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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old November 23 2013, 03:12 AM   #121
teacake
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I'm happy for you exodus!

This place is cud.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:15 AM   #122
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I can't see spending much time talking about the show if I didn't care about it.
I am passionate about the books, shows and movies that I love. I either love it passionately and take it to heart, or I'm completely apathetic. I don't do a lot of middle ground. Why would I waste time on something I don't care that much about?
Shouldn't time heal wounds?

teacake wrote: View Post
I'm happy for you exodus!

This place is cud.
Thanks.
I'm honestly still surprised to find you here.
I thought you would have gotten bored with it by now.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:17 AM   #123
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Why are people here the only ones still holding on to hurt feelings longer than people mourn the dead?
You know how Peter David killed Janeway in that awful book? I will be talking about that in my nursing home. And my children will pat my hand and whisper to the nurse to hurry up with the medication.
Lol that is so funny, and I'm exactly like that. I can get very emotional about fictional characters. I don't understand how people don't care. I mean, if you don't care, why do you bother watching/reading? How much can you enjoy a story without emotional investment?
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Old November 23 2013, 03:19 AM   #124
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
I can't see spending much time talking about the show if I didn't care about it.
I am passionate about the books, shows and movies that I love. I either love it passionately and take it to heart, or I'm completely apathetic. I don't do a lot of middle ground. Why would I waste time on something I don't care that much about?
Shouldn't time heal wounds?

teacake wrote: View Post
I'm happy for you exodus!

This place is cud.
Thanks.
I'm honestly still surprised to find you here.
I thought you would have gotten bored with it by now.
I like the people. Something always makes me laugh. We have a good time
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Old November 23 2013, 03:23 AM   #125
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Why are people here the only ones still holding on to hurt feelings longer than people mourn the dead?
You know how Peter David killed Janeway in that awful book? I will be talking about that in my nursing home. And my children will pat my hand and whisper to the nurse to hurry up with the medication.
Lol that is so funny, and I'm exactly like that. I can get very emotional about fictional characters. I don't understand how people don't care. I mean, if you don't care, why do you bother watching/reading? How much can you enjoy a story without emotional investment?
..but close to a decade later after the show is over is still along time to still have an emotional investment, no? Especially something like hurt feelings. Why hold onto bad feelings? Why would you want to continue to be mad at a TV show? If you didn't like Kes being bitter, why hold onto emotions that would twist you that way too?
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Old November 23 2013, 03:23 AM   #126
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Some wounds never heal.
Seriously though, the novels moved Kes's story forward and did a lot of damage control with Kes, but we are discussing Fury, and this is how I feel about it.
A bad story in the middle of a story arc can be overlooked and forgotten, but a bad story at the end of a story arc is going to stick. Kes is my favorite Voyager character (Although Janeway is a close second, and I'm also very fond of the Doctor and Seven - the latter with reservations) so Fury is more of a bone of contention to me than it would be for other fans who have other favorites.
I guess I'll care as long as I care about Voyager. Which will probably be as long as I live I'd say. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the rest of the series, and the novels.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:26 AM   #127
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
Some wounds never heal.
Seriously though, the novels moved Kes's story forward and did a lot of damage control with Kes, but we are discussing Fury, and this is how I feel about it.
A bad story in the middle of a story arc can be overlooked and forgotten, but a bad story at the end of a story arc is going to stick. Kes is my favorite Voyager character (Although Janeway is a close second, and I'm also very fond of the Doctor and Seven - the latter with reservations) so Fury is more of a bone of contention to me than it would be for other fans who have other favorites.
I guess I'll care as long as I care about Voyager. Which will probably be as long as I live I'd say. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the rest of the series, and the novels.
Ok. I guess I'll never understand that. If it's not personal, stuff like Kes and Fury doesn't bother me.
Out of nine(?) characters, what made Kes your favorite?
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Old November 23 2013, 02:40 PM   #128
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I don't understand what you mean by "If it's not personal".
I like that Kes is kind, sweet and gentle, but has unexpected reservoirs of strength. She had a different pov than the other characters who are older, more wordly and cynical. I liked the story arc of her mysterious mental abilities. I like the limitation of her short lifespan, and how she lived the time she did have to the fullest without self pity. I hated that she left, but overall even her exit wasn't too bad, she left Voyager only because she had to, to save everyone else, and there is a sense of wonder at her ascension to a higher form of existence.
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Old November 23 2013, 11:45 PM   #129
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

She was kind of like a butterfly.
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Old November 24 2013, 12:29 AM   #130
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't understand what you mean by "If it's not personal".
I like that Kes is kind, sweet and gentle, but has unexpected reservoirs of strength. She had a different pov than the other characters who are older, more wordly and cynical. I liked the story arc of her mysterious mental abilities. I like the limitation of her short lifespan, and how she lived the time she did have to the fullest without self pity. I hated that she left, but overall even her exit wasn't too bad, she left Voyager only because she had to, to save everyone else, and there is a sense of wonder at her ascension to a higher form of existence.
It would be personal if we worked on the set of Star trek Voyager or if we were imaginary characters inside the story of Star Trek Voyager.

Fanatical infatuation with imaginary make believe shite is creepy and unhealthy.
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Old November 24 2013, 01:46 AM   #131
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't understand what you mean by "If it's not personal".
I like that Kes is kind, sweet and gentle, but has unexpected reservoirs of strength. She had a different pov than the other characters who are older, more wordly and cynical. I liked the story arc of her mysterious mental abilities. I like the limitation of her short lifespan, and how she lived the time she did have to the fullest without self pity. I hated that she left, but overall even her exit wasn't too bad, she left Voyager only because she had to, to save everyone else, and there is a sense of wonder at her ascension to a higher form of existence.
Stuff like "Fury is an insult to Kes fans." and the implications that it was done on purpose. That's what I mean about fans making it personal. Why would anyone think the writers sat down a wrote a story with the intent of purposing pissing the viewers off? Not to mention the script after being written had to meet with approval, so how can ALL involved agree to that? It was just story that sounded good on paper but felt apart on execution. Hell, bad editing of scenes could have ruined it as well.


As for how you see Kes, I see her that way too.
My disppointment with her I think is also similar to yours as well, I believe. I think they dropped the ball with her and never really fleshed her out enough. While I admired her wisdom, I think they made her know to much too son. I felt it hard to see much growth in her development if she seemed to already be wise enough to know it all. I think she deserved a better job than a nurse. Why stick the the person that's never seen ANYTHING in her life in the one room with no windows AND with one person that can't even leave the room? They gave her great powers but then wrote her to be scared to keep using them. "Before & After" showed that she grew up to be nothing that she couldn't have become on Ocampa. That's disappointing and says too me, they never had a game plan for her beyond the first few episodes.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:28 AM   #132
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I loved Kes's relationship with the Doctor, she saw him as a sentient being, no questions or reservations, even before he started thinking of himself that way. Being a nurse didn't have to be a limitation though, she could've been the primary medical personnel on away mission since for a long time the Doctor couldn't leave sickbay.
Kes should've had more maturing to do, but her development still came and could've come in different directions. Her outgrowing Neelix was a move in the right direction. She could've gone on to have a relationship with Paris, even had the baby we saw her have in The Year of Hell.
I find it a little offensive to basicly be told I'm creepy and unhealthy for caring about Kes. If we're not supposed to care about the characters, why are any of us even here? It's an easy insult to shut down someone's opinions it seems like.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:49 AM   #133
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I find it a little offensive to basicly be told I'm creepy and unhealthy for caring about Kes. If we're not supposed to care about the characters, why are any of us even here? It's an easy insult to shut down someone's opinions it seems like.
Caring, and its boyfriend Over Caring are what makes fandom fun. Fandom plays around with all these characters like they're for realsies, because it draws us as viewers into a less passive relationship with the story.
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Old November 24 2013, 03:14 AM   #134
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
Shouldn't time heal wounds?
Nah, the saying is 'time wounds all heels'.
Though some emotional scars heal over time. My parents died over 40 years ago, but it doesn't hurt as much now.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:15 AM   #135
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I find it a little offensive to basicly be told I'm creepy and unhealthy for caring about Kes. If we're not supposed to care about the characters, why are any of us even here? It's an easy insult to shut down someone's opinions it seems like.
I never called you creepy or unhealthy nor do I consider you such, Guy implied it.
If I was trying to shut down an opinion, I wouldn't be asking you why you enjoy the character and continued to speak to you about her.
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