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Old November 21 2013, 04:33 AM   #106
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I still think it's weird that she would have to spend thousands of light years chasing Voyager down, just to get thrown back 40 thousand light years towards Ocampa.
If she had dementia then her actions and reasons wouldn't be logical.

Generally speaking; I'm tired of the "she wouldn't do that cause it's out of character" excuses, as if dementia is a life choice. As if someones content of character wards it off. It's as absurd as it is offensive to those that actually do suffer from it.
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Old November 21 2013, 04:35 AM   #107
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Remember all those times drugs, spores, viruses and alien worms caused Trek folk to go bonkers? It's like that.
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Old November 21 2013, 05:16 AM   #108
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

R. Star wrote: View Post
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SFDebris had a good suggestion in his review of Fury... instead of having Kes just go crazy because she can. Have the Borg had noticed her mental superness since they were in Borg Space during the Gift. Have them assimilate the Ocampa to try and get this mental power. Then suddenly Kes has a reason to be acting as she is and you have a story worth telling.
I see no reason why Kes should go crazy and act that way at all. The whole thing was totally out of character for her. She was probably the last one on that ship to go crazy.

as for a Borg scenario, seven would have been a more logic choice for becoming a victim of Borg scemes.
See, I never saw what Seven had to offer the Collective at all. Some sort of "unique" insight into humanity that Picard's assimilation(not to mention all the rest) somehow didn't? Them going after the Ocampa for mental abilities would make sense as that would bring something to the table. Maybe a scenario where she's covertly spying on them without knowing it, but even that runs into the flaw of... why does one little ship matter to them at all?
I think the Borg using Seven as a sleeper agent makes more sense than them going from an extreme interest in tech. suddenly believing in the supernatural.
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Old November 21 2013, 06:00 AM   #109
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I still think it's weird that she would have to spend thousands of light years chasing Voyager down, just to get thrown back 40 thousand light years towards Ocampa.
If she had dementia then her actions and reasons wouldn't be logical.

Generally speaking; I'm tired of the "she wouldn't do that cause it's out of character" excuses, as if dementia is a life choice. As if someones content of character wards it off. It's as absurd as it is offensive to those that actually do suffer from it.
You misunderstand, it's not that what the crazy lady did, it's that what the crazy lady did worked.

Of course last night I figured out that she wove a cocoon around the warp core and a harnessed herself to it physically, but out of phase, so that no one saw her as she travelled backwards through time in engineering.
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Old November 22 2013, 07:57 AM   #110
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I still think it's weird that she would have to spend thousands of light years chasing Voyager down, just to get thrown back 40 thousand light years towards Ocampa.
If she had dementia then her actions and reasons wouldn't be logical.

Generally speaking; I'm tired of the "she wouldn't do that cause it's out of character" excuses, as if dementia is a life choice. As if someones content of character wards it off. It's as absurd as it is offensive to those that actually do suffer from it.
You misunderstand, it's not that what the crazy lady did, it's that what the crazy lady did worked.

Of course last night I figured out that she wove a cocoon around the warp core and a harnessed herself to it physically, but out of phase, so that no one saw her as she travelled backwards through time in engineering.
It took you how many years later?
j/k


Between "Coldfire", "Fury","Scorpion" & "YoH", I got the impression that Braga was a big Marvel comics fan.
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Old November 22 2013, 09:02 AM   #111
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Putting into words what Braga did doesn't make the fake imaginary science anyless bad.

Also it's what Teal'c did in the last Stargate SG1.

Jean Grey is back from the dead again.

Sorta.

After Cyclops killed Professor X last year at the climax of Avengers vs X-Men, Hank McCoy decided to A Christmas Carol Scott Summers by introducing 16 year old Cyclops X-Man freshhman to 36 year old Criminal Mutant terrorist best buddies with Magneto. Shit happened and the original X-Men, 16 year old Jean Grey included, are "stuck" in the present for hte forseeable "present".

I remember the Dark Kes scenes where the corridors are exploding to have lasted longer and look less fake.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; November 22 2013 at 09:28 AM.
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Old November 22 2013, 09:16 AM   #112
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I was laughing my head off the first time I saw Fury.
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Old November 22 2013, 09:41 PM   #113
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

teacake wrote: View Post
Remember all those times drugs, spores, viruses and alien worms caused Trek folk to go bonkers? It's like that.
No, it's not.

In all other episodes where Trek characters go nuts, they are restored back to normal. Kes wasn't.

And I don't buy the ridiculous crap talk about dementia either. In "The Gift" she was turned to some sort of energy being which obviously is the highest level for an Ocampa. Now, why should she return back to a previous level and on top of that return as a crazy old wreck. It doesn't make any sense. Not to mention that, as such an energy being, she shouldn't age at all.

And I still can't see the point in bringing back a character which was dumped three years later and which they had did all they could to make us forget, only to ridicule, humiliate and destroy that character. It doesn't make sense either.

teacake wrote:
I was laughing my head off the first time I saw Fury.
I didn't, despite being warned about the episode by some American friends.

I got so angry that I was very cloes to throw the TV out of the window. Only sheer greed (TV:s are a bit expensive) and some concern about the people on the street below stopped me from doing that.

Plus the fact that I would rather have smashed my old bulky TV over Braga's or Fuller's head instead.
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Old November 22 2013, 10:01 PM   #114
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Susperior's Ocampa flitted between extradimensional beings and (4)dimensional beings at whim, which would suggest that neither state is completely better than the other and both still contian merits over the other.

A vulgar thought came to me the other day.

The cloud had a shit, and that shit is who we met in Fury.

In Twins they described Arnie as the perfect man, and all the junk DNA got pared off and made Danny DiVito... Similar to that, but invoiolving a space toilet.

If she wasn't back to normal, they wouldn't have let her go.

If Kes really did have as much issues with her memories as we think, after a light year or two, she could have forgotten her attack on Voyager, turned around and made another run at them thinking it was the first time again... Consideirng she should be too powerful to kill (A hand phaser? GFY Braga.) pushing grammy Kes off in one direction and then running in the opposite as soon as her back is turned seems like a fine alternative to blowing up a sun to "get her".

But sincerly she was not in a fit mental state to pilot star ship.
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Old November 22 2013, 10:20 PM   #115
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Remember all those times drugs, spores, viruses and alien worms caused Trek folk to go bonkers? It's like that.
No, it's not.

In all other episodes where Trek characters go nuts, they are restored back to normal. Kes wasn't.

And I don't buy the ridiculous crap talk about dementia either. In "The Gift" she was turned to some sort of energy being which obviously is the highest level for an Ocampa. Now, why should she return back to a previous level and on top of that return as a crazy old wreck. It doesn't make any sense. Not to mention that, as such an energy being, she shouldn't age at all.

And I still can't see the point in bringing back a character which was dumped three years later and which they had did all they could to make us forget, only to ridicule, humiliate and destroy that character. It doesn't make sense either.

teacake wrote:
I was laughing my head off the first time I saw Fury.
I didn't, despite being warned about the episode by some American friends.

I got so angry that I was very cloes to throw the TV out of the window. Only sheer greed (TV:s are a bit expensive) and some concern about the people on the street below stopped me from doing that.

Plus the fact that I would rather have smashed my old bulky TV over Braga's or Fuller's head instead.
I pretty much agree with all this. Kes shouldn't have aged, I never really got why she wasn't still an evolved energy being anymore. I care too much about Kes to find this episode funny. Kes getting a brutal character assasination made me angry, and it still does.
For what it's worth though, the Voyager novels String Theory trilogy goes a good job of fixing this mess.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:21 AM   #116
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Remember all those times drugs, spores, viruses and alien worms caused Trek folk to go bonkers? It's like that.
No, it's not.

In all other episodes where Trek characters go nuts, they are restored back to normal. Kes wasn't.

And I don't buy the ridiculous crap talk about dementia either. In "The Gift" she was turned to some sort of energy being which obviously is the highest level for an Ocampa. Now, why should she return back to a previous level and on top of that return as a crazy old wreck. It doesn't make any sense. Not to mention that, as such an energy being, she shouldn't age at all.

And I still can't see the point in bringing back a character which was dumped three years later and which they had did all they could to make us forget, only to ridicule, humiliate and destroy that character. It doesn't make sense either.

teacake wrote:
I was laughing my head off the first time I saw Fury.
I didn't, despite being warned about the episode by some American friends.

I got so angry that I was very cloes to throw the TV out of the window. Only sheer greed (TV:s are a bit expensive) and some concern about the people on the street below stopped me from doing that.

Plus the fact that I would rather have smashed my old bulky TV over Braga's or Fuller's head instead.
I pretty much agree with all this. Kes shouldn't have aged, I never really got why she wasn't still an evolved energy being anymore. I care too much about Kes to find this episode funny. Kes getting a brutal character assasination made me angry, and it still does.
For what it's worth though, the Voyager novels String Theory trilogy goes a good job of fixing this mess.
They explained where Kes went and that Ocampia who went there still age in "Coldfire". Remember he told her when Ocampans reach the full potential of their mental abilities they could visit a place of pure thought called "Xoshia", the Ocampa who told her that was also 15 years old and standing before her as flesh and blood.

Besides, this eps was years ago.
Show is long over and the cast and crew have long moved on in their lives.
Why are people here the only ones still holding on to hurt feelings longer than people mourn the dead?
You folks are talking about this like a real crime was committed and like Kes is real.
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Last edited by exodus; November 23 2013 at 01:37 AM.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:52 AM   #117
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Something has changed about you.

Medication or new lover?
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Old November 23 2013, 02:58 AM   #118
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I can't see spending much time talking about the show if I didn't care about it.
I am passionate about the books, shows and movies that I love. I either love it passionately and take it to heart, or I'm completely apathetic. I don't do a lot of middle ground. Why would I waste time on something I don't care that much about?
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Old November 23 2013, 02:59 AM   #119
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
Why are people here the only ones still holding on to hurt feelings longer than people mourn the dead?
You know how Peter David killed Janeway in that awful book? I will be talking about that in my nursing home. And my children will pat my hand and whisper to the nurse to hurry up with the medication.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:11 AM   #120
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Something has changed about you.

Medication or new lover?
Yes, my life has gotten much better.
Thank you, while nothing here has changed a day.
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