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Old December 2 2013, 12:54 AM   #346
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

That's where they made a mistake in Shuttlepod One. It was getting colder and colder and sure you might get some snuggling for warmth but if had gotten hotter and hotter you would have gotten stripping down to the blue undies!
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Old December 2 2013, 01:22 AM   #347
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

All that boozy talk of T'Pol's bum should have greased their way into each other's arms.

Historically (snigger) Judd Hirsch was stuck in a blizzard in a Taxi with Ludka (Andy Kaufman)'s TV wife played by the inescapably desirable Carol Cane (The Ghost of Christmas past from Scrooged who kept punching THEBILLMURRAY in the sack.) and they totally did it to stem hypothermia.
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Old December 2 2013, 02:50 AM   #348
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

It IS important not to die. A duty, even.
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Old December 2 2013, 05:10 AM   #349
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Heheheheh... She said "Duty".
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Old December 3 2013, 04:19 AM   #350
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't buy that they couldn't write good Kes stories. A good writer should be able to write good stories about any character on a tv show for the big bucks they make, and there's plenty of interesting details with Kes to work with. Psychic, short life span, a young woman still coming into her own independence, and Kes could've been a surrogate sister to Seven, someone they could both be protective of. Seven has a motherly relationship with Janeway (with romantic subtext depending on who you ask) and an antagonistic relationship with B'lanna. Seven and the Doctor had a good relationship, with both of them struggling to find their place in the universe. I think there was room for Kes and Seven to have a different friendship, and don't see where Seven coming on board had to push Kes out. The frustrating thing about them keeping Kim over Kes is that really never did anything all that memorable with him anyways.
IMO I think it's easy to say this in retrospect but money doesn't bring inspiration. I don't think the writing staff felt inspired to write for her. I do think they wrote her into a corner, they gave her a dead end job which then got worse once the EMH got a mobile emitter. Once he got that, he didn't really need Kes as a nurse anymore. That development for her now became a dead end. They gave her powers but they wrote she was afraid to use them. If she was afraid to use them, then developing that aspect of her character hits a corner. They didn't know where to take her romantically after Neelix, so that was now a dead end. They made her very stoic, so she spoke less and less. Not the avenue you wanna take a character for development. They were cutting off most angles they could take her. I see that as writing her into a corner.
BTW, you also wrongly assume that if you write for TV that you're getting paid well.
No always true depending on the show and network you work for.
Prime example: "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer"
Very popular and now iconic show, cast and crew got paid peanuts for it.
Probably one of the lower paying shows on TV at the time.

borgboy wrote: View Post
Berman can upset me sometimes in the things he does. He also talked about having a gay crewmember on Enterprise, and instead we got group jelly rub downs with all boy/girl action. He was going to do a special gay episode, and it was the weakest metaphor with Vulcan mind meld taboo. Then he recently criticized JJ for not having gay characters in his movies. I thought my head would explode.
I'm critical of JJ for that too, but Berman doesn't get to criticize when he had the best opprotunity to do something with gay characters on a tv series where he had many dozens of hours to do that.
I'd rather them not do a episode about a homosexual issue, then have them do one and fuck it up like they've done with other cultures like in "Code of Honor", "Up the Long Ladder" or "Tattoo".
Fans were making a big deal for a little while about having a woman as a featured capt., the Trek fan base wasn't ready for homosexuals on Trek IMO. Trek has always been a boys club, so much so they needed to hire a women to get her opinions on how Janeway should be written. Avery Brookes had to give insight on how an African-American male should be portrayed in the future. Heteros don't understand Homosexual issues.
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Last edited by exodus; December 3 2013 at 04:44 AM.
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Old December 3 2013, 04:49 AM   #351
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Kes being afraid of her power was a way of keeping her in check so that she didn't turn into a super hero who could fix all their problems. Much like Seven became. Kes still used her powers at times in spite of her fear, and I think that was more interesting. Kes's power could've been used so that she was advising Janeway much in the way that Troi advised Picard. Kes could've took starfleet classes online and been given a field promotion to ship's counselor if she didn't have enough to do as a nurse. Kes could've stayed single and had relationships that lasted one episode here and there, much like what was done with Kim, and most other characters. Stoic characters, like Spock and Seven, can be quite popular, but if that was a problem, then the writers could've had her come out of her shell and focus more on her empathy and emotional openness.
One story I'd like to have seen is Kes deciding to become a single parent once her true eloguim happened. I'd have had her approach Tom about being a sperm donor so that she could have the daughter that she had in the alternate timeline - a daughter she still had memories of. Not having that child should've been like a death to her imo. I imagine there'd be a lot of conflict, perhaps Kes wouldn't even ask for Tom to be a donor, but the truth behind her grieving is discovered and explored. Once everyone understands that this is about Kes wanting to have a child, the child she still remembers and loves, and not about her having feelings for Tom, then Tom and B'lanna agree to Kes having the child. The story could be a metaphor for the loss of a child, but with a positive ending. The kid could then be a supporting character played by an adult within a year or so, but wouldn't have to be a major player anymore than all of Seven's Borg kids were. Just one suggestion, but then Kes as a single mother opens up new storylines.
If the writers weren't creative enough to write for Kes, that's on them. I don't buy that there were no stories out there for her. If they wrote her into a corner, they could write her back out of it if they had wanted to.
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Old December 3 2013, 04:58 AM   #352
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
Kes being afraid of her power was a way of keeping her in check so that she didn't turn into a super hero who could fix all their problems. Much like Seven became. Kes still used her powers at times in spite of her fear, and I think that was more interesting. Kes's power could've been used so that she was advising Janeway much in the way that Troi advised Picard. Kes could've took starfleet classes online and been given a field promotion to ship's counselor if she didn't have enough to do as a nurse. Kes could've stayed single and had relationships that lasted one episode here and there, much like what was done with Kim, and most other characters. Stoic characters, like Spock and Seven, can be quite popular, but if that was a problem, then the writers could've had her come out of her shell and focus more on her empathy and emotional openness.
One story I'd like to have seen is Kes deciding to become a single parent once her true eloguim happened. I'd have had her approach Tom about being a sperm donor so that she could have the daughter that she had in the alternate timeline - a daughter she still had memories of. Not having that child should've been like a death to her imo. I imagine there'd be a lot of conflict, perhaps Kes wouldn't even ask for Tom to be a donor, but the truth behind her grieving is discovered and explored. Once everyone understands that this is about Kes wanting to have a child, the child she still remembers and loves, and not about her having feelings for Tom, then Tom and B'lanna agree to Kes having the child. The story could be a metaphor for the loss of a child, but with a positive ending. The kid could then be a supporting character played by an adult within a year or so, but wouldn't have to be a major player anymore than all of Seven's Borg kids were. Just one suggestion, but then Kes as a single mother opens up new storylines.
If the writers weren't creative enough to write for Kes, that's on them. I don't buy that there were no stories out there for her. If they wrote her into a corner, they could write her back out of it if they had wanted to.
Then maybe you should write for TV.
If folks think they could write better, then why isn't anyone doing it?

So, the solution to recover from the loss of a child is to get another one?
Children shouldn't be treated like puppies.
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Old December 3 2013, 05:06 AM   #353
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I don't think it's that easy to get a job writing for tv.
Also, just because I can't perform surgery doesn't mean I'm ok with my surgeon sewing me up with a scalpel inside me. I don't have to be a professional writer to express an opinion about the writing of the show we're discussing in a forum.
It's ok if we disagree on this. I just don't agree that there weren't good stories to be told with Kes. I strongly believe that Kes was still one of the most interesting characters on the show when she was written out.
But regardless of how or why she was written out, Fury was still a colossally bad idea, at least as it was executed.
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Old December 3 2013, 07:28 AM   #354
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
They made her very stoic, so she spoke less and less. Not the avenue you wanna take a character for development.
My problem with her was she had no flaws. This didn't make for very interesting viewing. Yes Spock and 7 were stoic, but that's because they were repressed, being stoic was part of their story arc. With Kes it just seemed like she had super emotional strength so didn't engage people on that level, which wasn't that great either.

They needed to break her a little, make her a romantic wreck or give her a loss or stretch her into parenting (without making her super parent). Or give her a ridiculous hobby that enthralled her, perhaps there could have been more soap viewing or she and Neelix could have done annoying morale officer projects together.
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Old December 3 2013, 07:45 AM   #355
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

The reset button would have spoiled any actual growth.

First it kept her with Neelix, then it stopped us from figuring out that they broke up, and then it foiled any sniff test that they had ever been together.
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Old December 3 2013, 10:49 AM   #356
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
Kes being afraid of her power was a way of keeping her in check so that she didn't turn into a super hero who could fix all their problems. Much like Seven became. Kes still used her powers at times in spite of her fear, and I think that was more interesting. Kes's power could've been used so that she was advising Janeway much in the way that Troi advised Picard. Kes could've took starfleet classes online and been given a field promotion to ship's counselor if she didn't have enough to do as a nurse. Kes could've stayed single and had relationships that lasted one episode here and there, much like what was done with Kim, and most other characters. Stoic characters, like Spock and Seven, can be quite popular, but if that was a problem, then the writers could've had her come out of her shell and focus more on her empathy and emotional openness.
One story I'd like to have seen is Kes deciding to become a single parent once her true eloguim happened. I'd have had her approach Tom about being a sperm donor so that she could have the daughter that she had in the alternate timeline - a daughter she still had memories of. Not having that child should've been like a death to her imo. I imagine there'd be a lot of conflict, perhaps Kes wouldn't even ask for Tom to be a donor, but the truth behind her grieving is discovered and explored. Once everyone understands that this is about Kes wanting to have a child, the child she still remembers and loves, and not about her having feelings for Tom, then Tom and B'lanna agree to Kes having the child. The story could be a metaphor for the loss of a child, but with a positive ending. The kid could then be a supporting character played by an adult within a year or so, but wouldn't have to be a major player anymore than all of Seven's Borg kids were. Just one suggestion, but then Kes as a single mother opens up new storylines.
If the writers weren't creative enough to write for Kes, that's on them. I don't buy that there were no stories out there for her. If they wrote her into a corner, they could write her back out of it if they had wanted to.
Then maybe you should write for TV.
If folks think they could write better, then why isn't anyone doing it?

So, the solution to recover from the loss of a child is to get another one?
Children shouldn't be treated like puppies.
I am!

I did!

After "Fury", I turned my anger into something constructive. Already after "The Gift", I had written a story called "Coming Home" in which Kes returned to Voyager. My plan was to sell it to PocketBooks but it turned out to be a more complicated maneuver that I had imagined so the whole thing was stalled for a while. Then, after "Fury", I rewrote it into a TV script with the help of a person who had experience from such things and sent it to Paramount. I got in touch with a guy there who told me that he did like the story. There were some conversation going on but in the long run, nothing happened. Maybe I wrote about the wrong character.

Since then, I've written two more Kes stories and I have more "in the can". My problem is lack of time.

Anyway, the point is that if an amateur like me can come up with decent Kes stories, then I expect the same from skilled, paid writers.

If the writing staff didn't feel inspired to write for her, then they weren't doing their job and should have been fired. I guess that Kim may not be the most inspiring character to write for. But give me a contract and a sum of money and I would come up with a decent Kim story as well.

I'm also surprised over how quick the writers lost their ability to write stories for Kes. They did actually come up with decent stories up to the last minutes of her time on Voyager (Warlord, Darkling, Before And After, Scorpion) and even after she was gome (Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways").

So I guess that it's actually like:

Boss: "You are quite good about writing stories about Character X"

Writer: Sir! Yes Sir! I find Character X a fascinating character and...

Boss: We have decided to dump Character X and the official reason is decided to be lack of inspiration to writing for the character. From now on, if asked about it, you will always express your lack of inspiration when it comes to Character X.

Writer: Sir! Yes Sir! I can't write for Character X! It's impossible to come up with good stories about Character X!
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Old December 3 2013, 11:48 AM   #357
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't think it's that easy to get a job writing for tv.
Also, just because I can't perform surgery doesn't mean I'm ok with my surgeon sewing me up with a scalpel inside me. I don't have to be a professional writer to express an opinion about the writing of the show we're discussing in a forum.
It's ok if we disagree on this. I just don't agree that there weren't good stories to be told with Kes. I strongly believe that Kes was still one of the most interesting characters on the show when she was written out.
But regardless of how or why she was written out, Fury was still a colossally bad idea, at least as it was executed.
Was it Braga or the other one who escaped from a tour and pretended he was an intern until someone started paying him?
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Old December 3 2013, 01:45 PM   #358
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
Kes being afraid of her power was a way of keeping her in check so that she didn't turn into a super hero who could fix all their problems. Much like Seven became. Kes still used her powers at times in spite of her fear, and I think that was more interesting. Kes's power could've been used so that she was advising Janeway much in the way that Troi advised Picard. Kes could've took starfleet classes online and been given a field promotion to ship's counselor if she didn't have enough to do as a nurse. Kes could've stayed single and had relationships that lasted one episode here and there, much like what was done with Kim, and most other characters. Stoic characters, like Spock and Seven, can be quite popular, but if that was a problem, then the writers could've had her come out of her shell and focus more on her empathy and emotional openness.
One story I'd like to have seen is Kes deciding to become a single parent once her true eloguim happened. I'd have had her approach Tom about being a sperm donor so that she could have the daughter that she had in the alternate timeline - a daughter she still had memories of. Not having that child should've been like a death to her imo. I imagine there'd be a lot of conflict, perhaps Kes wouldn't even ask for Tom to be a donor, but the truth behind her grieving is discovered and explored. Once everyone understands that this is about Kes wanting to have a child, the child she still remembers and loves, and not about her having feelings for Tom, then Tom and B'lanna agree to Kes having the child. The story could be a metaphor for the loss of a child, but with a positive ending. The kid could then be a supporting character played by an adult within a year or so, but wouldn't have to be a major player anymore than all of Seven's Borg kids were. Just one suggestion, but then Kes as a single mother opens up new storylines.
If the writers weren't creative enough to write for Kes, that's on them. I don't buy that there were no stories out there for her. If they wrote her into a corner, they could write her back out of it if they had wanted to.
Then maybe you should write for TV.
If folks think they could write better, then why isn't anyone doing it?

So, the solution to recover from the loss of a child is to get another one?
Children shouldn't be treated like puppies.
I'm not saying Kes should have a different child. I'm saying I wanted her to have the same child, to give birth to the daughter that she remembers having. That's why it's important for Tom to be the father. She could have another child with anyone, but she could only have Linnis with Tom.
I wish your Kes novel had been published Lynx
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Old December 4 2013, 12:56 AM   #359
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

But what about baby Miral? Must she just vanish from existence?!
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Old December 4 2013, 01:37 AM   #360
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

teacake wrote: View Post
But what about baby Miral? Must she just vanish from existence?!
No way. Miral is still born too in my idea. Everybody can have a baby by Tom in my world.
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