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Old December 1 2013, 04:18 AM   #331
borgboy
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I'm not sure about the wrong or right character.
I was a lot more upset about Fury than I ever was about Kes's inital exit.
My favorite DS9 character is Jadzia Dax and they killed her off, and I was less upset about that than I was about Fury. Jadzia died, but it was a good story that was part of a longer reaching arc, and the character continued to be important to the show thru the end of the series. Even with Jadzia being killed the character was written with respect and care.
Fury really does feel like the writers were flipping the audience off, metaphoricly. I can't think of any other regular Trek character that I think was treated that badly.
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Old December 1 2013, 04:19 AM   #332
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Lynx wrote: View Post

Well, you might have a point there.

But I have to correct you on one thing. It wasn't my letter campaign. it was started by another Kes fan and there were many people who joined it. I was just one of them.

But if "Fury" was a response from those in charge to the campaign, wasn't that a nasty thing to do. I mean, the letters and mails were polite. Mine too!
I have no doubt, not all of them were.
Some folks can't be nice or are unaware they can be nasty.

How often did you write them in this letter campaign?
Was is one letter signed by a bunch of fans or several letters?
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Old December 1 2013, 04:25 AM   #333
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about the wrong or right character.
I was a lot more upset about Fury than I ever was about Kes's inital exit.
My favorite DS9 character is Jadzia Dax and they killed her off, and I was less upset about that than I was about Fury. Jadzia died, but it was a good story that was part of a longer reaching arc, and the character continued to be important to the show thru the end of the series. Even with Jadzia being killed the character was written with respect and care.
Fury really does feel like the writers were flipping the audience off, metaphoricly. I can't think of any other regular Trek character that I think was treated that badly.
Got it, I was a HUGE Jadzia Dax fan myself.

My thing about picking the wrong character: example: I like Jar Jar Binks. Now I understand why others don't like him but I don't find him as annoying to the degree everyone else does but I'm also aware that I picked the wrong character to like.
Due the writing staff dropping the ball on her so many times, Kes just became (IMO) the wrong character to like because they wrote her into a corner. (Yes, I do think they did and couldn't fix her, which is why she had to go unfortunately) As I said in another post, I don't hate Kes. I just find her development very disappointing.
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Old December 1 2013, 05:50 AM   #334
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I don't get at all that Kes was written into a corner. Anyone that cared to could've written a good story about her at any time. They definitely were moving in the right direction by ending her relationship with Neelix, she was growing as a person. If her powers were becoming a problem she could've easily lost those powers, maybe the result could've been by pushing Voyager so far thru space she damaged the part of her brain that caused her powers. Personally I liked her mysterious abilities and thought there was a lot of potential to use them, I always liked the stories that dealt with that, such as when she met the colonly of Ocampans.
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Old December 1 2013, 06:05 AM   #335
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

"We can't write Kes Stories" was a lie they told to justify not following through on their moist desire to terminate Wang.
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Old December 1 2013, 07:36 AM   #336
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I don't buy that they couldn't write good Kes stories. A good writer should be able to write good stories about any character on a tv show for the big bucks they make, and there's plenty of interesting details with Kes to work with. Psychic, short life span, a young woman still coming into her own independence, and Kes could've been a surrogate sister to Seven, someone they could both be protective of. Seven has a motherly relationship with Janeway (with romantic subtext depending on who you ask) and an antagonistic relationship with B'lanna. Seven and the Doctor had a good relationship, with both of them struggling to find their place in the universe. I think there was room for Kes and Seven to have a different friendship, and don't see where Seven coming on board had to push Kes out. The frustrating thing about them keeping Kim over Kes is that really never did anything all that memorable with him anyways.
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Old December 1 2013, 07:49 AM   #337
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I don't buy that they were good writers.

Voyager was using the same template they stole off TNG, who stole it off TOS who stole it off Gunsmoke... Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Multimillion dollar Madlibs.
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Old December 1 2013, 05:07 PM   #338
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
No matter how bad the lunatic fringe got, getting back to them by destroying Kes was petty and mean spirited. For what it's worth even though I was a devoted Voyager fan, never missed an episode, read all the novels, etc I wasn't involved with any kind of organized fandom so I didn't even know there was a letter writing campaign.
Sadly, maybe you just drew the short straw and fell in love with the wrong character.
Maybe I did too?

As for fandom, I watched every episode up to "The Gift" when I did quit for two years. Then decided to give the series a new chance, borrowing VHS tapes to watch the episodes I had missed, then got "Fury" as a reward for my fandom, quit again and only watched "Endgame" after that. And yes, I have all the season 1-3 novels to and really like them. Some of them are better than many of the TV episodes.

As for the letter campaign, I did know about some other Kes/Jennifer Lien fansites and one of them came up with the campaign, in 1999 I think.

exodus wrote:
I have no doubt, not all of them were.
Some folks can't be nice or are unaware they can be nasty.

How often did you write them in this letter campaign?
Was is one letter signed by a bunch of fans or several letters?
It was several letters and mails. I did only write them once and it was a nice and polite letter. I was well aware of the fact that an angry letter wouldn't accomplish anything.

borgboy wrote:
I don't buy that they couldn't write good Kes stories. A good writer should be able to write good stories about any character on a tv show for the big bucks they make, and there's plenty of interesting details with Kes to work with. Psychic, short life span, a young woman still coming into her own independence, and Kes could've been a surrogate sister to Seven, someone they could both be protective of. Seven has a motherly relationship with Janeway (with romantic subtext depending on who you ask) and an antagonistic relationship with B'lanna. Seven and the Doctor had a good relationship, with both of them struggling to find their place in the universe. I think there was room for Kes and Seven to have a different friendship, and don't see where Seven coming on board had to push Kes out. The frustrating thing about them keeping Kim over Kes is that really never did anything all that memorable with him anyways.
I totally agree. I must point out that one of the things that really did annoy me was how it was presented from the beginning. First they told us that Lien had "quit of her own free will", then, when it was obvious to everyone that she had been sacked, they started to come up with this "we couldn't write for the character" fairy tales.

Compare that with NCIS where both the company and the actress came up with the reasons why the actress who played Caitlin Todd wanted to leave the show, although I have to mention that I didn't like that they killed off the character.

In fact, I didn't like that they killed off Tasha yar and Jadzia Dax either. They should learn from the Bobby Ewing example:
"If an actor or actress leaves or get fired, don't kill off the character. You might have to re-instate the actor, actress and character later on".
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Old December 1 2013, 05:12 PM   #339
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

If you're going to steal, steal from the best.
I agree that shows should be careful killing off characters. I think with Jadzia and Tasha it worked out though. Jadzia has one of the best death stories ever imo. Her death is part of the bigger Dominion War/Dukhat story, and it really brought some real drama to the story. Her death was treated seriously, Jadzia was never forgotten, and it brought in a new Dax, Ezri, who had a good story arc about her adjusting to being joined and continuing to live among Jadzia's friends. Jadzia lived on thru Ezri. I like Ezri, but I like Jadzia better. Still, with Terry Farrell leaving I think what they did made for a good story, better than just transferring Jadzia to a new posting where we never saw her.
Both Farrell and Crosby chose to leave at least. Tasha's death story was pretty poorly done, but we did get Sela out of the deal, who made for a really great villain, and we got the great Yesterday's Enterprise with an alternate Tasha. I'd say all things considered Jadzia and even Yar got treated a lot better than Kes. Jadzia got basicly reincarnated, and Yar got Yesterday's Enterprise, while Kes got The Fury.
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Old December 1 2013, 05:14 PM   #340
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about the wrong or right character.
I was a lot more upset about Fury than I ever was about Kes's inital exit.
My favorite DS9 character is Jadzia Dax and they killed her off, and I was less upset about that than I was about Fury. Jadzia died, but it was a good story that was part of a longer reaching arc, and the character continued to be important to the show thru the end of the series. Even with Jadzia being killed the character was written with respect and care.
Fury really does feel like the writers were flipping the audience off, metaphoricly. I can't think of any other regular Trek character that I think was treated that badly.
Neither can I.

I never felt so angry or insulted over any movie or episode as I was over "Fury". I still see it as a spit in the face of the Kes fans.

(OK, there was a movie some years ago in the country where I live where people from my home province was described as poachers, cheaters, criminals and lousy bastards in general. That annoyed me even more. But it was made by snotty jerks in the capital of the country and I never expected anything decent from them. I had more confidence in Berman and the others once upon the time).
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Old December 1 2013, 05:52 PM   #341
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Berman can upset me sometimes in the things he does. He also talked about having a gay crewmember on Enterprise, and instead we got group jelly rub downs with all boy/girl action. He was going to do a special gay episode, and it was the weakest metaphor with Vulcan mind meld taboo. Then he recently criticized JJ for not having gay characters in his movies. I thought my head would explode.
I'm critical of JJ for that too, but Berman doesn't get to criticize when he had the best opprotunity to do something with gay characters on a tv series where he had many dozens of hours to do that.
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Old December 1 2013, 07:38 PM   #342
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

It couldn't be any better than the aids awareness episode of Enterprise where T'Pol was meld raped and walked out of it with an incurable mental disease that didn't seem to have any outward notifiers and was then cured unceremoniously half way through season 4.

If that thing she had was a metaphor for AIDs, then it shouldn't have been able to have been cured in story until AIDs was cured in the real world.
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Old December 1 2013, 09:00 PM   #343
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I agree the "AIDS" story on Enterprise was awful. An extra dimension of awfulness is added when you consider Berman said the episode was supposed to be their "gay" metaphor episode. I have read where even Berman admited they failed with that episode, so at least he's not defending it.
To compare it to The Fury though, imagine if that had been T'Pol's last episode.
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Old December 1 2013, 09:08 PM   #344
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

No, the gay episode was Similitude.

Archer spent 3 days and three nights in a large bathtub with Andreas Katsulas.

After day one, it was no shirt.

After day two, it was no pants.

On day three, it was, well since we're already naked...
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Old December 1 2013, 09:19 PM   #345
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
No, the gay episode was Similitude.

Archer spent 3 days and three nights in a large bathtub with Andreas Katsulas.

After day one, it was no shirt.

After day two, it was no pants.

On day three, it was, well since we're already naked...
Can't two guys take a bath together without everybody saying they're gay?
Wait, I'm on the wrong side of this debate :P
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