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Old November 28 2013, 02:15 AM   #271
teacake
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Let's see, Kes has miscomphesion and due to it comes back to villianize the innocent crew of Voyager.
Kes fans have miscomphensions about script writing and due to it villainize the writing staff of the show.

Interesting.

.....and for those that actually care to learn TV production, "Fury" wasn't written over any holiday season because shows stop production in late Oct. or early Nov.
Well, my motto has always been "Don't get mad-get even"
Well, if you truly believe that "Fury" is a big "Fuck You" to your letter writing campaign. Then look what it got you.
They still got the last laugh by getting even.

Just sayin'.
Boy I wish I had thought of this with Riker.

"PLEASE Mr. Paramount, please please please make Riker the Captain and have him marry all the women and sit in the big chair and say engage I am writing these 1000 letters to beg you to come to your senses and make it so!"

Season finale: Riker blows up.
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Old November 28 2013, 02:16 AM   #272
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Let's see, Kes has miscomphesion and due to it comes back to villianize the innocent crew of Voyager.
Kes fans have miscomphensions about script writing and due to it villainize the writing staff of the show.

Interesting.

.....and for those that actually care to learn TV production, "Fury" wasn't written over any holiday season because shows stop production in late Oct. or early Nov.
Well, my motto has always been "Don't get mad-get even"
Well, if you truly believe that "Fury" is a big "Fuck You" to your letter writing campaign. Then look what it got you.
They still got the last laugh by getting even.

Just sayin'.
Oh, I agree. There's absolutely nothing realistic we could do to "get back" at the people responsible for this, even if I believed in revenge, which I don't. They totally got the last laugh, but realisticly, what were they getting back at us for? For caring about a character they had created but lost interest in?
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Old November 28 2013, 02:38 AM   #273
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I never said I couldn't imagine Kes doing anything wrong. I can't imagine her killing her friends though, and she starts off the episode doing just that, even if it was an alternate timeline.
The problem was that they only rewrote the end, when at the least the whole thing needed a massive rewrite. Maybe if they had used the big reset button they were so fond of and had Kes stopped herself from the whole thing happening at all, and at the end we saw Kes happy on Ocampa leading her people to live their lives with bravery and an independent spirit, something like that, then the episode could've been better. If they had managed to put some hope into Kes's future it might've worked better. As it was, yes, Kes did stop herself, but old Kes still left Voyager angry and broken, she just had backed off from her killing spree, and had nothing left for her but to return to the backwards little world she had fled with a desire to see more of the universe. What kind of message does that send? The end for Kes was still so depressing and bleak it really ruins Kes's whole story arc. I can't think of any other major Trek character that got treated that badly.
It sends the same one that TNG & DS9 did with Worf & Odo.
While they are surrounded by friends, they aren't of their race. Their people. They wanted to embrace their culture, feel a bond again with their own kind that they didn't have with those around them. They did it with Neelix & again with Seven. Neelix found more of his kind and wanted to stay. Seven accepted Earth was where she came from and where she belonged.
I am African-American, you openly admitted you are Homosexual. We as minorities ourselves should identify with such things. While we can have/make friends of other races & cultures, there is usually a stronger bond of understanding and relation with our own kind. THere are aspects of our cultures that others can't truly understand or share that bond with us.

As Kes was getting old, she did her exploring and she wanted to go to finish her life were she felt comfortable, home. Just like the crew of Voyager, she still held a bond to the place where she was born. On Ocampa she could be at peace. It maybe a backwards place but as you get older things change, you become nostalgic. Things you rebelled against in your youth, as an adult you come to accept and see wisdom in. There's no place like home, cheesy yes but it's one of the greatest truths there is. I don't see Kes going home to end her life in peace with her own people as a bad thing. It was the theme of the show, wasn't it?
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Old November 28 2013, 02:47 AM   #274
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I was too busy wondering which apostrophes I fucked up to bother with that.

It's slowly dawning on me that a great deal of my TV today has been tabled by Turkey Day.

DAMN YOU TURKEY DAY!
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Old November 28 2013, 02:53 AM   #275
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

Well, my motto has always been "Don't get mad-get even"
Well, if you truly believe that "Fury" is a big "Fuck You" to your letter writing campaign. Then look what it got you.
They still got the last laugh by getting even.

Just sayin'.
Oh, I agree. There's absolutely nothing realistic we could do to "get back" at the people responsible for this, even if I believed in revenge, which I don't. They totally got the last laugh, but realisticly, what were they getting back at us for? For caring about a character they had created but lost interest in?
Exactly, that's why I don't believe they were trying to get back at anybody. TV is about ratings, the bigger the better.
The bigger the ratings, the more sponsors. The more bigger name sponsors, the more money a show makes.
"If" your story about Sliders actually is true, then that is why those guy were fired. They purposely not only fucked their show over but they hurt the payroll of EVERYBODY working on that show. Knowing all this, no way would tptb behind Voyager do that type of stunt. They would have screwed the ENTIRE staff of the show. If they did it on purpose, the cast and crew aren't under contract anymore and I'm sure we would have heard it by now if it were true.
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Old November 28 2013, 02:54 AM   #276
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I see Kes's situation a little different than you do. It's a little interesting to me, as I think it's just a matter of perspective, point of view, and not that either of us is right or wrong.
Kes left her people and was happy to build a new life for herself because at least in part because she was "different". She questioned the status quo and wanted more out of life than the safe and traditional life that was expected of her. I had never thought about it like that before, but Kes's beginning could be seen as having parallels to the gay experience, where so many of us have to leave home and build a new life for ourselves away from what is familiar. It's very common for gay people, especially ones who have been cast out or at least alienated from our families to build new families, a chosen family of friends, as Kes did. For me, I see the people Kes belongs with as being her family of choice on Voyager, instead of her returning, tired and defeated, to safe boring Ocampa, where no one understood her.
I do get your point about the theme of the show. Maybe it would've worked if we'd seen some spark of happiness in Kes at going home instead of her looking utterly miserable.
As for behind the scenes, all I remember hearing is that Jeri Ryan got a very cool reception for a very long time from a lot of the cast, including KM, because they resented her replacing JL. I thought that sounded unfair, as it wasn't her fault that JL got fired, but that's what I've heard.
As for Sliders, I have heard a lot of really awful things about how bad the behind the scenes were. There were problems with Sabrina Lloyd being bullied by Kari Whuler or whatever her name was, Maggie, apparently because Sabrina Lloyd was dating someone from the crew and KW was snobbish about that, and that when the other producers got rid of the original creater that there were all sorts of problems, and it showed in the quality of the show. The writers seemed to delight in giving exiting characters terrible exits, but Sabrina Lloyd's Wade got the worst of it by being sent to a "breeding camp" where she'd be repeatedly raped. I've even heard things said about that, that I won't get into just because it's so ugly.
Being aware of how people behind the scenes can do vicious ugly things to a character with malicious intent makes me more wary of the intentions of writers when I see a character treated so badly, especially in an exit story. Kes's exit story wasn't too bad, but bringing her back just to do this to her, I have a hard time believing it wasn't malicious no matter how illogical it may seem. The possibility that it was this bad unintentionally is hard to believe.
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Old November 28 2013, 02:56 AM   #277
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

teacake wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

Well, my motto has always been "Don't get mad-get even"
Well, if you truly believe that "Fury" is a big "Fuck You" to your letter writing campaign. Then look what it got you.
They still got the last laugh by getting even.

Just sayin'.
Boy I wish I had thought of this with Riker.

"PLEASE Mr. Paramount, please please please make Riker the Captain and have him marry all the women and sit in the big chair and say engage I am writing these 1000 letters to beg you to come to your senses and make it so!"

Season finale: Riker blows up.


You are terrible!
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Old November 28 2013, 03:00 AM   #278
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I see Kes's situation a little different than you do. It's a little interesting to me, as I think it's just a matter of perspective, point of view, and not that either of us is right or wrong.
Kes left her people and was happy to build a new life for herself because at least in part because she was "different". She questioned the status quo and wanted more out of life than the safe and traditional life that was expected of her. I had never thought about it like that before, but Kes's beginning could be seen as having parallels to the gay experience, where so many of us have to leave home and build a new life for ourselves away from what is familiar. It's very common for gay people, especially ones who have been cast out or at least alienated from our families to build new families, a chosen family of friends, as Kes did. For me, I see the people Kes belongs with as being her family of choice on Voyager, instead of her returning, tired and defeated, to safe boring Ocampa, where no one understood her.
I do get your point about the theme of the show. Maybe it would've worked if we'd seen some spark of happiness in Kes at going home instead of her looking utterly miserable.
I completely get this, more than you know.
However, deep down inside don't those gay people estranged from their family wish it wasn't so? Don't deep down inside wish they could go home?
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Old November 28 2013, 03:02 AM   #279
teacake
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

But Kes didn't have an Ocampan family. Everyone was dead. Lifespan and all that.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:03 AM   #280
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

teacake wrote: View Post
But Kes didn't have an Ocampan family. Everyone was dead. Lifespan and all that.
Doesn't matter, peoples is peoples.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:12 AM   #281
borgboy
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I remember Kes being pretty close to her father, but that's all the family she had, and I think he was dead when she left, wasn't he? All Kes would have to go home to would be maybe some old friends or classmates, whatever, and most of them would be dead. She'd pretty much be going home to a bunch of strangers, even if it was the familiar world.
As for people wishing they could go home, I guess it depends on what they have to go home to. Some homes need to be left. I'm not saying my own life is like that, but I wouldn't generalize that everyone wants to go home. I never felt like Kes was homesick when she was with Voyager. She had a chance to stay with the more advanced Ocampans she met, and she still chose to stay with Voyager. She only left because of her growing powers and the risk she posed to ship and crew. While the rest of the crew wanted to go home, Neelix, Kes and Seven didn't have the same goals. Voyager was their home, the only home any of them had. At least Neelix chose to leave for a new life that he wanted, with a wife and stepson. Seven went with Voyager to Earth to begin a new life (and returned to Voyager in the books). Kes did get a better life, and a redemption story in the books to explain her inexplicable actions at least, but I never bought that Ocampa was truly home in her heart anymore. Voyager was her true home in my opinion.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:26 AM   #282
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I see Kes's situation a little different than you do. It's a little interesting to me, as I think it's just a matter of perspective, point of view, and not that either of us is right or wrong.
Kes left her people and was happy to build a new life for herself because at least in part because she was "different". She questioned the status quo and wanted more out of life than the safe and traditional life that was expected of her. I had never thought about it like that before, but Kes's beginning could be seen as having parallels to the gay experience, where so many of us have to leave home and build a new life for ourselves away from what is familiar. It's very common for gay people, especially ones who have been cast out or at least alienated from our families to build new families, a chosen family of friends, as Kes did. For me, I see the people Kes belongs with as being her family of choice on Voyager, instead of her returning, tired and defeated, to safe boring Ocampa, where no one understood her.
I do get your point about the theme of the show. Maybe it would've worked if we'd seen some spark of happiness in Kes at going home instead of her looking utterly miserable.
As for behind the scenes, all I remember hearing is that Jeri Ryan got a very cool reception for a very long time from a lot of the cast, including KM, because they resented her replacing JL. I thought that sounded unfair, as it wasn't her fault that JL got fired, but that's what I've heard.
As for Sliders, I have heard a lot of really awful things about how bad the behind the scenes were. There were problems with Sabrina Lloyd being bullied by Kari Whuler or whatever her name was, Maggie, apparently because Sabrina Lloyd was dating someone from the crew and KW was snobbish about that, and that when the other producers got rid of the original creater that there were all sorts of problems, and it showed in the quality of the show. The writers seemed to delight in giving exiting characters terrible exits, but Sabrina Lloyd's Wade got the worst of it by being sent to a "breeding camp" where she'd be repeatedly raped. I've even heard things said about that, that I won't get into just because it's so ugly.
Being aware of how people behind the scenes can do vicious ugly things to a character with malicious intent makes me more wary of the intentions of writers when I see a character treated so badly, especially in an exit story. Kes's exit story wasn't too bad, but bringing her back just to do this to her, I have a hard time believing it wasn't malicious no matter how illogical it may seem. The possibility that it was this bad unintentionally is hard to believe.
If you believe it's illogical and still choose to believe it, then I have nothing left to add to this. It goes back to my first comment about why Kes fans want to make things personal for no reason. It's not the shows fault anymore.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:41 AM   #283
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

People do illogical things all the time. It wouldn't really be logical of me to assume other people make all their decisions based on logic.
I don't really understand what you mean by "it's not the shows fault anymore." I think it still is their fault, why wouldn't it be?
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Old November 28 2013, 06:44 AM   #284
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
People do illogical things all the time. It wouldn't really be logical of me to assume other people make all their decisions based on logic.
I don't really understand what you mean by "it's not the shows fault anymore." I think it still is their fault, why wouldn't it be?
If you believe the reasons behind the why the story is bad is personal, that's not the writers fault. There are many reasons why what could have started out as a good story went bad.

It could have been a bad story from the start.
It could have gotten ruined due to rewrites during filming.( they're on the set for 16hrs a day. Allot of that is reshoots and rewrites.)
It can be ruined during editing(which happens allot) there very we'll could be scenes cut out due to time that might have helped if left in.
Not that a movie is like a TV show but the best example I can think of right now is "the Incredible Hulk" movie w/ Ed Norton. Half the dialog in the film ended up on the cutting room floor. Putting it back in could change some of the tone and story, maybe for better.
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Old November 28 2013, 07:43 AM   #285
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Maybe.
I think that even the original outline, which was probably "Kes comes back all crazy and blows crap up and dies!" sounds pretty awful. I'd think all the rewrites in the world wouldn't have made that any worse. At least they were talked into letting Kes live.
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