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Old November 2 2013, 06:51 PM   #31
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Picard had turned down promotions on several occasions. And, IIRC after the events of Before Dishonor he's actually a Commodore?
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Old November 2 2013, 07:07 PM   #32
Sci
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Picard had turned down promotions on several occasions. And, IIRC after the events of Before Dishonor he's actually a Commodore?
Well, I think that was Captain Calhoun being cutsey, not a legit promotion.

But, yeah, Picard turned down a promotion to admiral in Losing the Peace, set in 2381.

Meanwhile, Riker has been commanding officer of the U.S.S. Titan for six years at this point. His actions during the Borg Invasion directly led to the discovery of the Caeliar and thus the resolution of the Borg crisis, and he has of course saved the Federation and expanded UFP knowledge of the galaxy a great deal numerous times over the course of his career. Riker is eminently qualified for promotion to the admiralty (if it sticks).

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Old November 2 2013, 08:13 PM   #33
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is it just me that thinks it's odd that a relatively recent captain with his first proper command would be promoted over his former commanding officer and long standing captain of the flagship ?
Not at all. Different people have different career goals. Some seek higher status while others are content where they are. It's not like everybody rises through the ranks at a consistent rate. There are fewer openings at higher ranks, so the vast majority of people who start out as ensigns will never get to be captains, and most captains will never get to be admirals. So it seems inevitable that there will be cases where person A starts out below person B in rank but ends up above them.
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Old November 2 2013, 08:24 PM   #34
Masiral
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is it just me that thinks it's odd that a relatively recent captain with his first proper command would be promoted over his former commanding officer and long standing captain of the flagship ?
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Old November 2 2013, 08:28 PM   #35
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Not at all. Different people have different career goals. Some seek higher status while others are content where they are. It's not like everybody rises through the ranks at a consistent rate. There are fewer openings at higher ranks, so the vast majority of people who start out as ensigns will never get to be captains, and most captains will never get to be admirals. So it seems inevitable that there will be cases where person A starts out below person B in rank but ends up above them.
And the people making the decisions about the promotions likely know this, as well. Akaar's probably well aware of Picard's desire to stay aboard the Enterprise, whereas he also likely sees Riker's ambition and knows that he'll be able to take on more responsibility if it's offered to him.

--Sran
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Old November 2 2013, 08:31 PM   #36
Sran
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Masiral wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is it just me that thinks it's odd that a relatively recent captain with his first proper command would be promoted over his former commanding officer and long standing captain of the flagship ?
That's a good point. But it doesn't explain the bump in rank. People can be promoted to positions of greater power and authority without changing rank. Sisko was given command of battle squadrons and special missions during the Dominion War and also served several months as Admiral Ross' adjutant without changing rank. Riker could conceivably take on greater responsibility without the aforementioned change in his status, so I wonder if there's something else afoot.

--Sran
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Old November 2 2013, 09:44 PM   #37
Masiral
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Sran wrote: View Post
Masiral wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is it just me that thinks it's odd that a relatively recent captain with his first proper command would be promoted over his former commanding officer and long standing captain of the flagship ?
That's a good point. But it doesn't explain the bump in rank. People can be promoted to positions of greater power and authority without changing rank. Sisko was given command of battle squadrons and special missions during the Dominion War and also served several months as Admiral Ross' adjutant without changing rank. Riker could conceivably take on greater responsibility without the aforementioned change in his status, so I wonder if there's something else afoot.

--Sran
I would think he would need a promotion to have legitimacy with President Ishan.
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Old November 3 2013, 01:56 AM   #38
Sran
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Masiral wrote: View Post
I would think he would need a promotion to have legitimacy with President Ishan.
Why? Does Ishan think he's too good to speak with someone holding the rank of captain? Does he need to be reminded that a Starfleet captain was largely responsible for keeping his world free of the Cardassians (and everyone else) following the Occupation?

I haven't finished A Ceremony of Losses yet, so I'll have to get back to you once I've more information. In any case, Ishan doesn't seem interested in giving anyone legitimate consideration unless they support him and his agenda. If his nose weren't already broken, I'd start a poll asking who readers would like to see turn it into a shattered mess.

--Sran
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Old November 3 2013, 02:11 AM   #39
Sci
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Sran wrote: View Post
Masiral wrote: View Post
I would think he would need a promotion to have legitimacy with President Ishan.
Why? Does Ishan think he's too good to speak with someone holding the rank of captain?
It probably has more to do with simple chain of command authorities. Akaar needs an ally in Starfleet Headquarters whom he knows is not tied to the Ishan administration, and he needs this ally to have the same authority to issue operational orders to starships and starbases that any admiral has. The only way to give such authority over the whole of the Federation fleet is to, well, promote this ally to admiral.

In any case, Ishan doesn't seem interested in giving anyone legitimate consideration unless they support him and his agenda. If his nose weren't already broken, I'd start a poll asking who readers would like to see turn it into a shattered mess.
Whew. If Bajorans were real, I'd call that a racial slur.
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Old November 3 2013, 02:26 AM   #40
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Sci wrote: View Post
It probably has more to do with simple chain of command authorities. Akaar needs an ally in Starfleet Headquarters whom he knows is not tied to the Ishan administration, and he needs this ally to have the same authority to issue operational orders to starships and starbases that any admiral has. The only way to give such authority over the whole of the Federation fleet is to, well, promote this ally to admiral.
That makes sense. But why Riker (beyond the obvious plot issues)? Was Akaar looking to promote someone who's popular throughout Starfleet? Or was Riker's name the one at the top of the promotion list when the time came to make a move?

Sci; wrote:
Whew. If Bajorans were real, I'd call that a racial slur.
Fortunate for me that they aren't. I don't have anything against Bajorans, but I have a huge problem with Ishar. He's petty, and petty doesn't mix well with powerful. As bad as he is for the Federation now, I'm glad that he wasn't around when Admiral Leyton was in Akaar's shoes. He'd likely have supported the police-state Leyton wanted to build in order to keep the Dominion away from Earth, and he probably would have sanctioned the genocide of the Founders if it meant gaining a tactical or political advantage over the Dominion and its allies.

--Sran
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Old November 3 2013, 02:26 AM   #41
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is it just me that thinks it's odd that a relatively recent captain with his first proper command would be promoted over his former commanding officer and long standing captain of the flagship ?
Sonya Gomez is a captain despite the fact that in her few (two?) canonical appearances she was a junior officer working for Geordi.

Things happen. Seniority and position aren't everything.
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Old November 3 2013, 02:50 AM   #42
Masiral
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Sran wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
It probably has more to do with simple chain of command authorities. Akaar needs an ally in Starfleet Headquarters whom he knows is not tied to the Ishan administration, and he needs this ally to have the same authority to issue operational orders to starships and starbases that any admiral has. The only way to give such authority over the whole of the Federation fleet is to, well, promote this ally to admiral.
That makes sense. But why Riker (beyond the obvious plot issues)? Was Akaar looking to promote someone who's popular throughout Starfleet? Or was Riker's name the one at the top of the promotion list when the time came to make a move?

--Sran
Riker is away from Earth, exploring. He's untouched by the current situation, and Akaar trusts him.
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Old November 3 2013, 03:41 AM   #43
Sci
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

Sran wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
It probably has more to do with simple chain of command authorities. Akaar needs an ally in Starfleet Headquarters whom he knows is not tied to the Ishan administration, and he needs this ally to have the same authority to issue operational orders to starships and starbases that any admiral has. The only way to give such authority over the whole of the Federation fleet is to, well, promote this ally to admiral.
That makes sense. But why Riker (beyond the obvious plot issues)? Was Akaar looking to promote someone who's popular throughout Starfleet? Or was Riker's name the one at the top of the promotion list when the time came to make a move?
Akaar knows that there are several people in Starfleet Headquarters who have disagreed with his decisions and secretly fed information to the President Pro Tempore's office, thereby subverting the chain of command -- and Ishan himself has subverted the chain of command and illegally issued orders himself. Akaar also does not trust Ishan.

Therefore, Akaar is looking for an ally he can install into the admiralty, who will have all the same authorities any admiral would have over the rest of Starfleet, and he's looking for someone whom he knows is not linked to Ishan's circle. That leads him to Riker, whom he knows has been deep in unexplored space in the Beta Quadrant for the last four years. He also, you might recall, has an existing relationship with Riker, stemming from his time aboard the Titan back in Taking Wing and The Red King.

Sci; wrote:
Whew. If Bajorans were real, I'd call that a racial slur.
Fortunate for me that they aren't. I don't have anything against Bajorans, but I have a huge problem with Ishar. He's petty, and petty doesn't mix well with powerful. As bad as he is for the Federation now, I'm glad that he wasn't around when Admiral Leyton was in Akaar's shoes. He'd likely have supported the police-state Leyton wanted to build in order to keep the Dominion away from Earth, and he probably would have sanctioned the genocide of the Founders if it meant gaining a tactical or political advantage over the Dominion and its allies.

--Sran
I agree completely. I'm just sayin' you can point out he's an authoritarian asshole without insulting his Bajoran nose. The Bajoran-American Anti-Defamation League would object.
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Old November 3 2013, 03:50 AM   #44
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

^ Was it really an insult against the Bajoran physical form? I took 'broken nose' to mean 'damage from being in a fight'. Although by the 24th century that term could have mutated into a racial insult, I suppose.
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Old November 3 2013, 04:18 AM   #45
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Re: Major spoilers from upcoming Fall novels.

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ Was it really an insult against the Bajoran physical form? I took 'broken nose' to mean 'damage from being in a fight'. Although by the 24th century that term could have mutated into a racial insult, I suppose.
1. The reference was to wanting to punch Ishan in the nose, except that his nose is "already broken." There is no reference to Ishan having a broken nose in the novels so far; thus this is clearly a reference to Ishan's Bajoran nose.

2. I meant that as a teasing thing, not as something that's meant to be taken as a real or earnest criticism. It's just a joke.
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