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Old January 5 2015, 03:23 AM   #1
laibcoms
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Trying to make sense of the timeline

So we have 2 "major" timelines from "primeverse" and 1 for "abramsverse"

Primeverse
ST:E > ST:TOS > ST:TNG/DS9/VOY > ST:Countdown > Star Trek:Relaunch > A mix of ST:Relaunch and STO's Path to 2409 "2379-2380" period > then at 2381 the primeverse timeline split into two:
1. Star Trek Online timeline, with involvement from the-powers-that-be
2. Star Trek Relaunch: "Destiny/Typhon Pact" timeline

> then by 2387 both STO and ST:R Destiny/Typhon Pact era had the same exact event - Hobus Supernova.

> Which gave birth to: Abramsverse
ST:E > Abrams TOS

Did I get it correctly? Trying to make sense of things, it's hard to be actively reading the ST:R Destiny/Typhon Pact era, playing STO, and watching Abramsverse all at the same time :/

Thanks a bunch!
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Old January 5 2015, 03:36 AM   #2
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

There's a lot in STO that differs from the novelverse well before 2381. For instance, most of the events of the DS9 post-finale novels (beginning in 2376) didn't occur in the STO history; in that version, Ro Laren was never pardoned and didn't become DS9 security chief until 2382, and Bajor didn't join the Federation until 2393. And the two continuities have different interpretations of certain species, such as Species 8472 (Groundskeepers in Places of Exile, Undine in STO) and the "Silent Enemy" aliens (Vertians in Rise of the Federation, Elachi in STO).

So there really isn't any single point of divergence or any way the two can really be reconciled. They're just different works of tie-in fiction that build on canon in their own distinct ways.
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Old January 5 2015, 03:51 AM   #3
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

Yeah, it's a mistake to quantify the non-canonical works as being distinct timelines. When it comes to timelines, just keep things simple for yourself: Prime Timeline equals ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/Movies 1-10. Alternate Timeline equals ST09 and STID. The books and Star Trek Online are just two different adaptations of the Prime Timeline.
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Old January 5 2015, 03:51 AM   #4
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

Christopher wrote: View Post
There's a lot in STO that differs from the novelverse well before 2381. For instance, most of the events of the DS9 post-finale novels (beginning in 2376) didn't occur in the STO history; in that version, Ro Laren was never pardoned and didn't become DS9 security chief until 2382, and Bajor didn't join the Federation until 2393. And the two continuities have different interpretations of certain species, such as Species 8472 (Groundskeepers in Places of Exile, Undine in STO) and the "Silent Enemy" aliens (Vertians in Rise of the Federation, Elachi in STO).

So there really isn't any single point of divergence or any way the two can really be reconciled. They're just different works of tie-in fiction that build on canon in their own distinct ways.
Ahh, interesting. I was hoping there was a particular point where STO and novels split considering how some info from both eventually made its way to the other through "borrowing" or "inspiration", like in the DTI book 1.

And the more I read the Destiny/Typhon Pact era, the more I like it than STO's turn of events. But with those differences pointed out, I guess it's too good to be true.

Would it be possible then that the split occurred after Nemesis? I'd like to say after ST:Countdown but it spans wide, and since I haven't read it, I'm not sure which particular years it covers -- I'm under the impression parts of after Nemesis which culminates in 2387).

Thank you very much. Those information are helpful. At least now I can separate the two more clearly and not get confused.
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Old January 5 2015, 04:10 AM   #5
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

laibcoms wrote: View Post
Ahh, interesting. I was hoping there was a particular point where STO and novels split considering how some info from both eventually made its way to the other through "borrowing" or "inspiration", like in the DTI book 1.

And the more I read the Destiny/Typhon Pact era, the more I like it than STO's turn of events. But with those differences pointed out, I guess it's too good to be true.

Would it be possible then that the split occurred after Nemesis?
Nope. As Christopher said, there's no clear "split" between the novels and STO. Sure, they're built on the same canon, so you might say that the "split" after DS9 Season Seven ends. But even that's not right, since they each reveal pre-existing information that contradicts one-another ([spoilers=Examples]i.e., in the novels, the "Mutes" from ENT's "Silent Enemy" are a relatively benign alien race who didn't understand that humanoids who communicate verbally are sapient creatures and stopped attacking them once they did; in STO, they're a deeply hostile extra-dimensional adversary linked to the alien abductions in TNG Season Seven[/i]).

Bottom line is that while the novels and STO are free to borrow ideas and even characters from one-another, they are separate and irreconcilable adaptations of the Prime Timeline.
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Old January 5 2015, 04:11 AM   #6
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

laibcoms wrote: View Post
Ahh, interesting. I was hoping there was a particular point where STO and novels split considering how some info from both eventually made its way to the other through "borrowing" or "inspiration", like in the DTI book 1.
STO borrowed some things from the novels (while disregarding others), but I'm pretty certain I didn't borrow anything from STO in DTI: Watching the Clock.


Would it be possible then that the split occurred after Nemesis?
As I said, there are clear divergences at least as early as 2376, just after the end of DS9. And STO interprets various alien races in ways that just don't mesh with their nature or history in the novels. For instance, Gateways: "The Other Side" depicts the Iconians as extremely tall and willowy but otherwise fairly typical-looking humanoids with facial tattoos, whereas STO portrayed them as some kind of crystalline, translucent humanoid with six glowing eyes and a glowing heart. They're also a lot more evil in STO than in the novelverse.
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Old January 5 2015, 11:47 AM   #7
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

The Trek canon-continuities are:

Prime Trek:
ENT>TOS>TNG>DS9+VOY
Tie-in continuities:
Star Trek Online (inc. Countdown), novelverse, many others.

New Movieverse:
ENT>ST'09>ID>ST3
Tie-ins:
IDW Star Trek Ongoing, Star Trek: The Videogame

The different tie-ins do reference each other occasionally (most obscure one I recently spotted - Old Spock's puzzle from the "When Worlds Collide" comic strip in Young Spock's quarters in Star Trek: The Videogame), but are packed with discontinuities as mentioned above. Each also has it's fair share of internal discontinuities (incompatible Q backstories in the novelverse, the Gorn in the 2013 game being incompatible with the novelverse-derived Gorn in STO, even through Countdown is common to both backstories)

It's worth mentioning that the STO novel The Needs of the Many treats the novelverse and STO as alternate realities in the same multiverse, and hints that time-travels by unknown agents may be responsible for the differences. Although that only works in the broadest strokes possible (again, see above), I find it fun to spot links between them - like Admiral Batiste in Unworthy perhaps being a remnant of the STO 8472/Undine infiltration, which was for some reason abandoned in the novelverse timeline.
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Old January 5 2015, 02:31 PM   #8
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

^ What King Daniel said.

Concerning the Elachi - they operate from bases in subspace but they aren't native to it. Humans aren't native to space either, despite being routinely encountered in starships.

Also, the Elachi might not be representative of their entire species. They could easily be a rogue faction, or history took a different course for them. Compare the differences between lap-dop Humans and mirror universe Terrans. Iconian manipulation works by dividing cultures along ideological lines.
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Old January 5 2015, 03:21 PM   #9
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

^Yeah, but how do you reconcile STO's Iconians with Gateways Iconians?
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Old January 5 2015, 04:55 PM   #10
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

Another race interpreted differently between novel 'verse and STO:


Although I agree that if one wanted to have Elachi in the novel 'verse, there's no reason why we couldn't have a rogue offshoot of the Vertians marooned in subspace, the Neyel to the Vertians' Humans, so to speak. There's just no reason to want them, because the novel 'verse doesn't need them. It explained the Shroomie mystery differently.
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Old January 5 2015, 05:13 PM   #11
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

As everyone else here has said, there are 2 main Star Trek timelines: prime and Abramsverse. Each has its own non-canon tie-ins, which for logistical and financial reasons don't all work together as singular "timelines". Each non-canon sub-franchise of Star Trek interprets characters, the fictitious laws of physics, etc differently.

Sci wrote: View Post
laibcoms wrote: View Post
Ahh, interesting. I was hoping there was a particular point where STO and novels split considering how some info from both eventually made its way to the other through "borrowing" or "inspiration", like in the DTI book 1.

And the more I read the Destiny/Typhon Pact era, the more I like it than STO's turn of events. But with those differences pointed out, I guess it's too good to be true.

Would it be possible then that the split occurred after Nemesis?
Nope. As Christopher said, there's no clear "split" between the novels and STO. Sure, they're built on the same canon, so you might say that the "split" after DS9 Season Seven ends. But even that's not right, since they each reveal pre-existing information that contradicts one-another ([spoilers=Examples]i.e., in the novels, the "Mutes" from ENT's "Silent Enemy" are a relatively benign alien race who didn't understand that humanoids who communicate verbally are sapient creatures and stopped attacking them once they did; in STO, they're a deeply hostile extra-dimensional adversary linked to the alien abductions in TNG Season Seven[/i]).

Bottom line is that while the novels and STO are free to borrow ideas and even characters from one-another, they are separate and irreconcilable adaptations of the Prime Timeline.
I think you're thinking of early advertising for Legacy of Romulus. The solanogen-based species from TNG - "Schisms" was later declared as a separate species named the Solanae in STO. The Solanae are different from the Elachi although both utilize abduction tactics as well as work together for the Iconians.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It's worth mentioning that the STO novel The Needs of the Many treats the novelverse and STO as alternate realities in the same multiverse, and hints that time-travels by unknown agents may be responsible for the differences. Although that only works in the broadest strokes possible (again, see above), I find it fun to spot links between them - like Admiral Batiste in Unworthy perhaps being a remnant of the STO 8472/Undine infiltration, which was for some reason abandoned in the novelverse timeline.
No, the Undine infiltration in STO began circa the 2390s. The infiltration campaign that impersonator Batiste was a part of is something exclusively featured in the novelverse as a means of expanding the background of VOY - "In the Flesh".
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Old January 5 2015, 05:53 PM   #12
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but how do you reconcile STO's Iconians with Gateways Iconians?
I wasn't attempting to reconcile STO as a whole, but in many spots it's actually quite easy.

The Iconians have had a civilization for 200,000 years. TNG presented a group of languages related to Iconian. The species could've diversified. The Neyel look nothing like Humans anymore, and it's only been a few centuries. The STO-Iconians may have adapted themselves to the conditions on Dewa III, where most lifeforms have six eyes (even cats).

The STO-Iconians may be a radical splinter faction, like the Cardassian True Way, the Alpha-Jem'Hadar, or Neonazis. Imperialism dies hard.

I'm not saying we need to reconcile the the two tie-in continuities, but we don't need to keep them quarantined from one another either.
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Old January 5 2015, 09:37 PM   #13
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

Ahh, got it. It seems it is that way, two separate timelines for the primeverse, which I think is for the better. The novelverse is more exciting and have more sense than where the STO timeline went. In STO, it seems the story got "locked" around the enemies, considering how of course, in game, there must always be some bigger enemy.

But in the novelverse, we moved on from the borg threat and introduced new ones, even new galactic politics at that. A refresh, a new air, not the same old plots during the live-action universe.

Hmm, @Christopher, I might have gotten confused or mixed up. Or maybe it was just me assuming it was a hat tip to STO or the STO novel. DTI Book 1 was the first relaunch I've read, I think that was two years ago. And it catapulted me into getting my hands on every Post-Nemesis novels, reading as many as I can. Lolz. And I still yet to catch up to the "present".

Thank you all for the help. ^_^

---
Yep, the Iconians confused me there. I thought they were related in some way.
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Old January 8 2015, 05:40 AM   #14
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

If you want to get really picky there are a lot more than two timelines. We've gotten gotten 10 unique alternate universes in the Myriad Universes trades and the comic, several in both Soul Key and Q&A, Mirror Universes for STO, the novelverse, and the Abramsverse, the Shatnerverse and a Shatnerverse MU. And that's recent stuff.
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Old January 8 2015, 06:04 AM   #15
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Re: Trying to make sense of the timeline

And according to the best 23rd century physicists in the ongoing IDW comic series set in the Abramsverse, there are infinite parallel timelines.
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