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Old October 20 2013, 07:44 PM   #16
thestrangequark
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

sonak wrote: View Post
Death wrote: View Post
Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
Does anybody remember anything from when they were two years old? I certainly don't.
I do. My earliest memory was when I was 1 or 2.

I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.
No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.
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Old October 21 2013, 03:05 PM   #17
Rhubarbodendron
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
Does anybody remember anything from when they were two years old? I certainly don't.
My earliest clear memory of an event was from when I was 20 months old.

How do you tell the difference between a repressed memory, verses something that you've simply forgot? I would think that the vast majority of the day to day ocurrences in our lives are fairly quickly gone.

my earliest (scary) memories date back to about the same age. My earliest pleasant memory is years younger. I think we have a general tendency to remember unpleasant things better. Makes sense, though: it ensures that we don't repeat dangerous mistakes.
As for the suppressed memory/forgotten things: in my experience suppressed memories - if they are well suppressed - stay under the radar and not even show up in dreams. Simply forgotten things tend to unexpectedly show up again when the memory is triggered. For example: I occasionally dream in English and annoingly can recall vocabulary in my dreams I have no conscious access to while awake.

So basically (but that's only my personal theory), forgotten things are still there on a subconscious level. You just can't access them consciousely. While suppressed memories are burried so deeply that they stay even below the subconscious level. Nature designed that very wisely because this mechanism enables us to push traumatic experiences away, the memory of which would drive us insane.

If a horrible memory is not properly suppressed it can potentially lead to mental/emotional trouble. Just think of the shellshocked soldiers after WW1 or modern soldiers who run amok when they return home. Rumour has it that 2 in 3 soldiers that were in Iraq have to undergo psychological treatment.
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Old October 21 2013, 04:05 PM   #18
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

I have memories of early childhood, but probably around that 4-5 year old age.

I remember my great-grandmother giving me a stuffed animal horse as a present.

I remember falling from the monkey bars and cutting my chin opening during speech therapy; a class I had to attend which allowed me to skip kindergarten.

An event I remember as clear as day was from when I was maybe a few years older. I was riding on the back of my aunt's bicycle heading to my Grandma's house. I thought to myself "what would happen if I stuck my foot in the spokes?" Well I did it...and I found out. What happened was I was in a cast the rest of the summer and I still haev a scar on the inside of my ankle from it. I even remember right where it happened and how the house that was there on that corner looked. Incidently the spot it happened was directly across the street from Jackson School where I had attended my speech therapy classes.
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Old October 21 2013, 04:09 PM   #19
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

I like this thread, its stirring up a lot of childhood memories.

I also remember as a child, probably around 8-10 I was playing in the basement with my older brother. I jumped off of a dresser into a wooden toybox (I was playing Superman) that was about half way filled with toys. I ended up breaking my arm. I ran upstairs crying in pain and my parents (this is the fuzzy part) wouldn't take me to the hospital until I fessed up to what had happened!
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Old October 21 2013, 05:45 PM   #20
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Death wrote: View Post

I do. My earliest memory was when I was 1 or 2.

I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.
No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.
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Old October 21 2013, 06:06 PM   #21
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

sonak wrote: View Post
thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.
No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.
I got my info double majoring in Developmental Psychology with a concentration in neurobiology and Childhood Special Education with a concentration in developmental disorders at NYU, through 6 years working directly with children ages 4-10 as part of a study of the effectiveness of different educational techniques in improving short-term and long-term recall, and through my continuing subscriptions to handful of neurology and psychology journals. But boy, do I feel like a fool, because I could have just googled it.

Silly me.
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Old October 21 2013, 07:31 PM   #22
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.
I got my info double majoring in Developmental Psychology with a concentration in neurobiology and Childhood Special Education with a concentration in developmental disorders at NYU, through 6 years working directly with children ages 4-10 as part of a study of the effectiveness of different educational techniques in improving short-term and long-term recall, and through my continuing subscriptions to handful of neurology and psychology journals. But boy, do I feel like a fool, because I could have just googled it.

Silly me.
That has to be one of the best throwdown responses ever, TSQ.
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Old October 21 2013, 11:41 PM   #23
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

Death wrote: View Post
That has to be one of the best throwdown responses ever, TSQ.
For once, you and I are in perfect agreement. That was pretty damn awesome.
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Old October 22 2013, 04:31 PM   #24
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
I have memories from 1 to 2 years of age as well...at least, I think I do.
I have several independently confirmed memories as far back as about 18 months of age. They're definitely just fragments. It's not until about age 4 where my memory is about what I'd consider normal memory.

That's the thing with memories. Our memories are really, really terrible, no matter how accurate we think they are. They are poor reconstructions of incomplete data from inaccurate sensory input, augmented with utter fabrication and beautifully designed to make us think they are good records of reality and to promote false confidence. You can never know for sure if an unconfirmed memory is genuine, a distortion of a genuine memory, an amalgamation of more than one memory, or just made up out of whole cloth, but you can always know for sure that every single memory you have is at the very least biased and only somewhat accurate.
That's probably the most concise yet complete description of our memory that I've read. I know enough to know the research backs you up on every point above.

I guess memory just has to be good enough to help us survive and yet not bog us down in details or distract us with the unimportant. Not to mention it all needs to run on what, like 20 watts or so?

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Old October 22 2013, 04:44 PM   #25
sonak
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
No, this isn't true at all. Brains are perfectly capable of forming memories, even in infancy, and infants actually have very good memories. Young children generally do have memories from the ages of 1-2 years, and infantile amnesia doesn't usually develop until later (after age 7 to 8-ish). No one knows why the vast majority of people have infantile amnesia, though there are several proposed theories. While rare, it is perfectly possible for an adult to have a memory from when he was a year old.

I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.
I got my info double majoring in Developmental Psychology with a concentration in neurobiology and Childhood Special Education with a concentration in developmental disorders at NYU, through 6 years working directly with children ages 4-10 as part of a study of the effectiveness of different educational techniques in improving short-term and long-term recall, and through my continuing subscriptions to handful of neurology and psychology journals. But boy, do I feel like a fool, because I could have just googled it.

Silly me.

well, I guess I'm silly too, because the wikipedia article on childhood amnesia confirms that memories before three are extremely rare, that significant parts of the brain are still forming at that point, and that memories are encoded differently in infants than in an older brain.

So yes, memories can be formed at infancy, but my basic point is valid-memories before three are very rare, and the reasons are as I indicated- the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and is still forming.


Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.
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Old October 22 2013, 04:51 PM   #26
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

^ The difference is that you said "we don't have infant memories" (implying that it's impossible), whereas TSQ says they're possible but rare in adults.

A word to the wise, I'd trust TSQ on this because she knows her stuff!

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Old October 22 2013, 06:23 PM   #27
Locutus of Bored
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

sonak wrote: View Post
I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.
sonak wrote: View Post
I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.
sonak wrote: View Post
well, I guess I'm silly too, because the wikipedia article on childhood amnesia confirms that memories before three are extremely rare, that significant parts of the brain are still forming at that point, and that memories are encoded differently in infants than in an older brain.

So yes, memories can be formed at infancy, but my basic point is valid-memories before three are very rare, and the reasons are as I indicated- the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and is still forming.

Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.
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Old October 22 2013, 07:51 PM   #28
thestrangequark
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

^Pretty much sums it up.
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Old October 22 2013, 08:43 PM   #29
sonak
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

Im N Ur Childhoodz wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I doubt that. There's an element of basic biology here. The one-year-old brain is just too different and unformed to have coherent memories that stay with us until maturity. At two or three you MIGHT have a few images, and that's even stretching it. Most people start having fully formed coherent memories at around age 4.
sonak wrote: View Post
I'd like to see sources for that. From what I've read, that just isn't the case. The reason why we don't have infant memories is because the infant brain is too different and isn't fully formed. And memories from before age three are extremely rare, so I'd like to know where you're getting your info.
sonak wrote: View Post
well, I guess I'm silly too, because the wikipedia article on childhood amnesia confirms that memories before three are extremely rare, that significant parts of the brain are still forming at that point, and that memories are encoded differently in infants than in an older brain.

So yes, memories can be formed at infancy, but my basic point is valid-memories before three are very rare, and the reasons are as I indicated- the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and is still forming.

Oh, and don't assume that the fact that you have a college degree or work experience or that you do some reading impresses me. None of those three things are exactly rare.

er, that wasn't me moving the goalposts, that was me acknowledging error on a minor point. I'm still right that:

1. memories before three are indeed extremely rare

2. the reason is, as I indicated, the infant brain is too different from the mature brain and still forming


so... yeah. I'm being told "I'm completely wrong," because I got a small irrelevant detail of mostly wording wrong while being correct on the main ideas.


I like the dancing goalpost graphic. It's cute.
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Old October 22 2013, 08:48 PM   #30
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Re: A question for people smarter then I.

Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
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I've done a lot of stupid things in the past 6 decades. The first probably happened when I was 2 years old. I stuck a pair of scissors into a live electrical outlet. I'm told I was pretty much stuck there, screaming "Hot! Hot!" until my brother kicked me loose from it. Apparently I've repressed the entire incident and don't remember it at all.
Does anybody remember anything from when they were two years old? I certainly don't.
I do
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