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Old October 22 2013, 07:18 PM   #46
kirk55555
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Re: Crusade Question

dansigal wrote: View Post
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Yeah, I really can't overstate how much I hated the plot about Londo the puppet.
Did you not enjoy it because you like Londo so much or do you think it wasn't well done? Because I don't think anyone is supposed to be happy about how the plot goes, but I also don't think you can deny how well done it was. It's called tragedy. And tragedy only works when you care about the characters its happening to. And the more the show is successful at making you care, the better the use of tragedy works. Joss Whedon has said that the secret to making good television is creating awesome characters that everyone loves and then doing terrible terrible things to them.

I certainly feel for ya on how expensive the books are to get your hands on, but if you can, if you're that big of a Londo fan, I would still recommend learning about how his story plays out.
Well, for what it was I thyink it was done as best as it could be. But, I don't like the idea in the first place, and I think it was an avoidable situation that kind of makes all of Londo's character development invalid. He never had a real reason to take the keeper (he sure as heck could have killed the guy trying to make him take it) and even if the bad guys had retaliated on centauri Prime, in the end its shown that the planet gets almost destroyed anyway right before he has G'Kar kill him. So, he was turned into a puppet for no real reason, and it accomplished nothing outside of making the previous 5 years of Londo's story arc fairly pointless.

I don't think I'd read the Centauri books if someone gave them to me for free. I'd probably throw them out in rage before getting through the first chapter of the first book. I unfortunately can't just count it as not canon like I can with the human futures from Deconstruction of Falling stars, but I certainly don't have to experience more of that poorly thought out destruction of my favorite character. I honestly don't think any cvharacter in a good sci fi has had such a screw you ending to their story arc.
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Old October 22 2013, 09:00 PM   #47
DonIago
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Re: Crusade Question

Sure Londo could have resisted the Drakh...and for all we know at that point the Drakh would have destroyed the planet. To say "it ends up happening anyway" is a somewhat dishonest argument given that Londo himself doesn't know what the future holds in that regard.

I don't see how you can argue that this development invalidates Londo's character development...the Londo we meet at the beginning of the series never would have needed a Keeper to begin with.

If you did read the novels you'd realize that the damage seen in the future is a fraction of what it could have been. You are aware that we only really see the capital city, right?

I don't see how five years of the character choosing to become a better person is invalidated by developments that force him to struggle for every ounce of free will he can muster for the rest of his life.

Honestly, I think you're extrapolating a hell of a lot about a trilogy you haven't even read. Perhaps you should have a little faith.
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Old October 22 2013, 10:00 PM   #48
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Re: Crusade Question

I don't think it invalidates Londo's arc, I think it's the absolute logical conclusion to it! It shows that all actions and decisions ultimately have consequences. It's the classic situation of a character getting everything they thought they ever wanted, only to have it happen in a way that brings them no joy whatsoever.

At the end of the day, Londo isn't a victim here. Or if he is a victim, he's a victim of his own decisions. He's brought this on himself by taking Mordon's help in subjugating the Narn. If Londo hadn't evolved as a character from that point, then this isn't your classic tragedy, it's a bad guy getting his just deserts. It's Londo's fantastic evolution that makes the entire scenario the perfect tragedy. It's really brilliantly done, even though its difficult to watch. It doesn't make Londo's character development invalid or pointless, it makes the character development the perfect crux of great drama.
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Old October 22 2013, 10:59 PM   #49
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Re: Crusade Question

Londo's storyline worked perfectly well for me. He made bad decisions, was responsible for the deaths of millions, and he had to pay the price for that. And he went out a hero.
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Old October 23 2013, 08:14 AM   #50
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: Crusade Question

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I don't think I'd read the Centauri books if someone gave them to me for free. I'd probably throw them out in rage before getting through the first chapter of the first book.
Nah, sell them. You've already seen the asking price for them. I'm holding on to my copies of all three trilogies and the other two "canon" novels, though.
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Old October 23 2013, 02:17 PM   #51
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Re: Crusade Question

DonIago wrote: View Post
Honestly, I think you're extrapolating a hell of a lot about a trilogy you haven't even read. Perhaps you should have a little faith.
That's par for the course with kirk5. The more you try to convince him he doesn't know what he's missing, the more he'll argue that he knows he's right.
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Old October 23 2013, 03:04 PM   #52
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Re: Crusade Question

Lindley wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Honestly, I think you're extrapolating a hell of a lot about a trilogy you haven't even read. Perhaps you should have a little faith.
That's par for the course with kirk5. The more you try to convince him he doesn't know what he's missing, the more he'll argue that he knows he's right.
Yea, I'm opting out of the forehead bruises this time
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Old October 23 2013, 04:19 PM   #53
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Re: Crusade Question

I superglue my palms to my face to avoid this problem.
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Old October 23 2013, 05:52 PM   #54
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Re: Crusade Question

I find it's best to just smile and nod while slowly backing away towards the nearest exit...
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Old October 23 2013, 06:01 PM   #55
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Re: Crusade Question

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
I assume the "cure" near the beginning of S2 would have turned out to morally compromise the human race to ensure its survival -- similar to the healing machine on B5, it would take life to save life.
I disagree. I think it probably would have started slowly altering humans in a ways like the shadowtech Earthforce had developed in the unfilmed episodes or in a ways like what shadowtech did to technomages with the heightened aggression.

DonIago wrote: View Post
One of the things that disappointed me about LotR (and I keep thinking that means something else) is that it was hard for me not to think, "Oh good, another uber-powerful race, just what this universe needs."
The presentation of LotR was deliberately meant to suggest that the Hand was an Old One race like the Shadows. I think it was very much a ruse on the part of the alien antagonists and on the part of the writer. If you rewatch the movie a large part of LotR deals largely in using presentation to fool the enemy.

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Old October 23 2013, 06:13 PM   #56
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Re: Crusade Question

It's certainly possible, but it still brought up unfortunate associations.
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Old October 23 2013, 06:22 PM   #57
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Re: Crusade Question

That's because we only got to see what could be equated to the first part of a magic trick (the pledge.) We never saw the turn or the prestige. Essentially that pilot is just JMS showing everyone that he has in his hands and ordinary deck of cards...*curtain drops*

Not really fair to judge a trick that was never given the chance to be completed. For all we know that deck of cards had a rabbit in it!
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Old October 23 2013, 06:59 PM   #58
kirk55555
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Re: Crusade Question

Lindley wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Honestly, I think you're extrapolating a hell of a lot about a trilogy you haven't even read. Perhaps you should have a little faith.
That's par for the course with kirk5. The more you try to convince him he doesn't know what he's missing, the more he'll argue that he knows he's right.
So, even though I hated every second of the storyline when it was on TV, I should try to read more of it?

I hated it on TV, I have no desire to see the story continued. While I liked B5 season 5 where some people hated it, it definately had problems and Londo was one of them to me. Its fine to disagree, it doesn't mean it makes me wrong about what I disliked about the show. To me, Londo got screwed and had a character arc that had no payoff at all. I liked it, but it never really ended. It got superceded by a hack alien possesion story. He got turned into a puppet for no real reason by aliens who shouldn't have been able to do anything without the Shadows anyway.

Also, I have another B5 related question thats also connected to this. Does In the Beginning actually start with puppet Londo? It says so on wikipedia, and if thats true I might have to skip it. I was considering getting the movie collection (when it goes down a bit, I'm not paying $15 for it) but if the one I'm most interesting in has puppet Londo, its less of a priority, even when it gets cheaper.
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Old October 23 2013, 07:38 PM   #59
Sindatur
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Re: Crusade Question

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Honestly, I think you're extrapolating a hell of a lot about a trilogy you haven't even read. Perhaps you should have a little faith.
That's par for the course with kirk5. The more you try to convince him he doesn't know what he's missing, the more he'll argue that he knows he's right.
So, even though I hated every second of the storyline when it was on TV, I should try to read more of it?

I hated it on TV, I have no desire to see the story continued. While I liked B5 season 5 where some people hated it, it definately had problems and Londo was one of them to me. Its fine to disagree, it doesn't mean it makes me wrong about what I disliked about the show. To me, Londo got screwed and had a character arc that had no payoff at all. I liked it, but it never really ended. It got superceded by a hack alien possesion story. He got turned into a puppet for no real reason by aliens who shouldn't have been able to do anything without the Shadows anyway.

Also, I have another B5 related question thats also connected to this. Does In the Beginning actually start with puppet Londo? It says so on wikipedia, and if thats true I might have to skip it. I was considering getting the movie collection (when it goes down a bit, I'm not paying $15 for it) but if the one I'm most interesting in has puppet Londo, its less of a priority, even when it gets cheaper.
Yes, it is Old Emporer Londo, telling a story to Children, as the framing story, but, there's very little of old emperor Londo in it
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Old October 23 2013, 07:43 PM   #60
Lindley
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Re: Crusade Question

The framing story of In The Beginning takes place more or less during the flash-forward from War Without End. However, Londo's keeper isn't mentioned in the movie and you can pretend it doesn't exist if it makes you feel better.

It's important to understand that a keeper does not control someone all the time. It can prevent them from acting against the keeper's interests, and it can briefly take control of them. But most of the time there's no reason to expend that energy, and they allow the person to do as they wish. Such is the case throughout In The Beginning's framing story. Make not mistake, it is Londo telling the story, not the keeper.
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