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Old October 19 2013, 11:05 PM   #31
kirk55555
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Re: Crusade Question

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I find it heartily reassuring that kirk555555's 2 least fave storylines are the reason I'm such a fan, and that my favourite episode is his least favourite.


Yeah, I really can't overstate how much I hated the plot about Londo the puppet, or the one about how billions of humans will instantly and unquestioningly follow a dictator for no real reason. They're really the two biggest flaws in the show. Strill, its such a great show that they don't get anywhere close to ruining B5 for me, its just kind of annoying.

As for The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, I just don't count it as being in continuity. To me its just showing a possible chain of events in a possible future (I know that wasn't the intent, its just how I think of it so I don't go crazy). Thats an easy one to ignore, since future stories aren't put in stone anyway. I just wish I could find some way to justify The Illusion of Truth not being in continuity. Actually, I just wish I could forget both episodes even exist .
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Old October 20 2013, 12:08 AM   #32
DonIago
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Re: Crusade Question

Given that one of JMS's main themes of the show was a somewhat anti-Trek "Humanity doesn't just evolve and never do bad things ever again", to remove those elements would make the show something other than what JMS intended.

That said, reasons were presented for why some people went along with Clark, and in many other cases I think it boiled down to simple fear. Easier to say nothing than to cause a confrontation that will likely get you imprisoned at best.
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Old October 20 2013, 12:33 AM   #33
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Re: Crusade Question

I agree that the Clark / EarthDome / EarthForce bit was a stretch and not my favourite bit of the show.

I also agree that it is very difficult to see what happens to Londo, who is by far one of the best characters on the show (together with G'Kar), but man does it make for great TV and the Centauri trilogy of books is fantastic! If you like Londo as a character then you are missing out by not reading the Centauri books.
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Old October 20 2013, 01:23 AM   #34
Jan
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Re: Crusade Question

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Also, about the Apocalypse Box:

There's no indication of that in any canon source material as far as I know. In fact, given that in some instances, the voice of the box was Gideon's, that seems unlikely.

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Old October 20 2013, 01:28 AM   #35
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Re: Crusade Question

Reverend wrote: View Post
'The Shadow Within' is in a bit of a grey area. Near as I can tell all the Morden/Anna/Icarus stuff is totally canon and is directly referenced in the techno-mage book (by the same author) but the Sheridan/Aggie/Homeguard story...not so much. With is as it should be since that b-story was only really there for padding and IIRC has very little of consequence going on.
Did JMS ever explain why he didn't consider that half of the book to be canon? It's been ages since I read it, so perhaps it was filled with contradictions to the series, but I don't remember any.
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Old October 20 2013, 02:18 AM   #36
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Re: Crusade Question

Harvey wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
'The Shadow Within' is in a bit of a grey area. Near as I can tell all the Morden/Anna/Icarus stuff is totally canon and is directly referenced in the techno-mage book (by the same author) but the Sheridan/Aggie/Homeguard story...not so much. With is as it should be since that b-story was only really there for padding and IIRC has very little of consequence going on.
Did JMS ever explain why he didn't consider that half of the book to be canon? It's been ages since I read it, so perhaps it was filled with contradictions to the series, but I don't remember any.
The only contradiction I'm aware of is a mix-up as to where Station Prime is supposed to be (the book has it over Centauri Prime instead of Earth.)

As for JMS, IIRC it's not that he's ever specifically said that the other half *isn't* canon, it that all he's said on the subject (in response to a question) is that the story of the Icarus as presented in that book is canon.

So like I said, it's a bit of a grey area and it's no great loss or gain either way.

Jan wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Also, about the Apocalypse Box:

There's no indication of that in any canon source material as far as I know. In fact, given that in some instances, the voice of the box was Gideon's, that seems unlikely.

Jan
Yeah, if it was a Vorlon it'd sound like Gideon's father, not Gideon himself.

I think with Crusade, JMS wanted to show that there's a lot of weird ancient crap floating around the galaxy that has little if anything to do directly with the First Ones. For a minute there with LotR it looked like he'd intended to continue that idea with 'The Hand', but of course we never got to see how that would have played out.
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Old October 20 2013, 03:25 AM   #37
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Re: Crusade Question

One of the things that disappointed me about LotR (and I keep thinking that means something else) is that it was hard for me not to think, "Oh good, another uber-powerful race, just what this universe needs."
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Old October 20 2013, 11:15 AM   #38
Reverend
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Re: Crusade Question

DonIago wrote: View Post
One of the things that disappointed me about LotR (and I keep thinking that means something else) is that it was hard for me not to think, "Oh good, another uber-powerful race, just what this universe needs."
I'd bet a good chunk of cash that "The Hand" wouldn't turn out to be the main villains. JMS never starts a show with the main arc front and centre. That doesn't usually kick in until at least mid-way through season one and all we got from LotR (yeah, I know!) was the pilot. You couldn't possibly have predicted what B5 would have been about from watching 'The Gathering' and the little details we have of where Crusade was heading make it clear that the Drakh Plague was only a catalyst to the main plot.

Always remember; "...no one here is exactly what they appear."
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Old October 20 2013, 12:56 PM   #39
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Re: Crusade Question

JMS did say that The Hand were lying about who they really were.
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Old October 20 2013, 03:37 PM   #40
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Re: Crusade Question

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Yeah, I really can't overstate how much I hated the plot about Londo the puppet.
Did you not enjoy it because you like Londo so much or do you think it wasn't well done? Because I don't think anyone is supposed to be happy about how the plot goes, but I also don't think you can deny how well done it was. It's called tragedy. And tragedy only works when you care about the characters its happening to. And the more the show is successful at making you care, the better the use of tragedy works. Joss Whedon has said that the secret to making good television is creating awesome characters that everyone loves and then doing terrible terrible things to them.

I certainly feel for ya on how expensive the books are to get your hands on, but if you can, if you're that big of a Londo fan, I would still recommend learning about how his story plays out.
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Old October 20 2013, 03:40 PM   #41
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Re: Crusade Question

Mr Light wrote: View Post
JMS did say that The Hand were lying about who they really were.
So what were they, really? The Foot? The Elbow? The Nose?
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Old October 20 2013, 04:31 PM   #42
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Re: Crusade Question

Couple of notes on this thread

1. To Dream in the City of Sorrows, in addition to the claims that it's 100% canon, was written by Kathryn M. Drennan, who, at the time, was married to JMS.

2. In addition to needing the chrysalis technology from the Shadows, the process of becoming a Technomage, as shown in the trilogy, was long and painful. I'm not sure how Galen would make Dureena into a full Technomage without the aid of the Shadow tech or the support system of other Technomages.

3. My memory is hazy, but in the scripts that were (briefly) released for the Crusade episodes on Bookface.com, Gideon was pissed when he found out that the same technology used to build the ships that destroyed the Cerebros was powering the Technomages and the the revelation created a break in Gideon's relationship with Galen. I do remember, though, that Galen was speeding towards Mars to try to save Gideon from being assassinated prior to revealing EarthForce's use of Shadowtech.

4. The scripts (both filmed and un-filmed) are available in the books here and split among the ones written by JMS and the ones written by people other than JMS.
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Old October 20 2013, 05:10 PM   #43
DonIago
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Re: Crusade Question

Mr Light wrote: View Post
JMS did say that The Hand were lying about who they really were.
Oh, I'll grant that what we hear of The Hand shouldn't be taken at face value (so I shouldn't face-palm), but it still felt perilously like a retread, even if it might have proven to be a short-term one.

Combined with the talk of assassination in Crusade, even if we're talking about a primary character in this case, I'm not exactly reassured.
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Old October 20 2013, 09:53 PM   #44
Reverend
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Re: Crusade Question

DonIago wrote: View Post
Mr Light wrote: View Post
JMS did say that The Hand were lying about who they really were.
Oh, I'll grant that what we hear of The Hand shouldn't be taken at face value (so I shouldn't face-palm), but it still felt perilously like a retread, even if it might have proven to be a short-term one.
I think that was the point. It's all misdirection. A bait and switch. You make the audience think they know what's coming because they've seen it before, then you suddenly turn it all on it's head.

Again, we only saw the pilot. It's purpose is mainly to (re)introduce the world and it's characters, establish the show's basic format and move on from there.

If we just looked at 'Midnight on the Firing Line' and try to extrapolate a whole show out of it, we'd naturally assume that the Narn would be the main villains, that Londo (and Vir) is nothing more than a buffoon and that the Centauri are increasingly impotent and unwilling to fight...

Combined with the talk of assassination in Crusade, even if we're talking about a primary character in this case, I'm not exactly reassured.
IIRC Gideon wouldn't have died exactly, at least not at first. He would have been shot and have his mind trapped inside the Appocalypse Box for a time. Presumably depending on Gary Cole's contract negotiations, he'd either be restored (yet changed?) or lost for good.
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Old October 20 2013, 10:16 PM   #45
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Re: Crusade Question

Well, I think this is why I consider B5 the show and many of the novels quite good, but am wary of most of what came later.

Then again, I had little interest in B5 until I saw a Shadow ship for the first time and I still consider S1 more miss than hit.
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