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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 19 2013, 05:43 PM   #46
Dale Sams
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

And given what Khan could do regardless of being centuries behind the curve. I don't even think it's a good idea to give them their own planet.
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Old October 19 2013, 07:29 PM   #47
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
The 'advanced' Feds of Picard's time had no problem disassembling Lore. I have no problem seeing a 'Vulcan-destroyed' timeline of 1 century prior to Picard doing whatever they wanted.
They were also still at the point where they questioned whether Data could be considered a person at all. It's easy to justify disassembling a dangerous machine.
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Old October 19 2013, 08:04 PM   #48
Dale Sams
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
The 'advanced' Feds of Picard's time had no problem disassembling Lore. I have no problem seeing a 'Vulcan-destroyed' timeline of 1 century prior to Picard doing whatever they wanted.
They were also still at the point where they questioned whether Data could be considered a person at all. It's easy to justify disassembling a dangerous machine.
No, Data had already been judged as a sentient being and with all the rights that entails.
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Old October 19 2013, 08:09 PM   #49
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

^ But it did come up again, as recently as "Measure of a Man".

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
And given what Khan could do regardless of being centuries behind the curve. I don't even think it's a good idea to give them their own planet.
But like I said, Ceti Alpha V had absolutely no technological base. It was basically just an empty wasteland, and that was even before its neighbor exploded. There would be nothing - ever - out of which Khan COULD have built a starship.
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Old October 20 2013, 12:02 AM   #50
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

On what are you basing your understanding of Ceti Alpha V?

My own, which may have been influenced by Greg Cox's novel on the subject admittedly, was that originally Ceti Alpha V was a pretty hostile planet, but not a wasteland...at least not entirely. Off the top of my head I imagine it being a rather more hospitable version of Skull Island, minus the natives.

As I think I mentioned above, it's not that Khan and his followers couldn't have eventually developed the technology for spaceflight there, it's that they'd be starting with raw resources.
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Old October 20 2013, 12:37 AM   #51
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

DonIago wrote: View Post
On what are you basing your understanding of Ceti Alpha V?

My own, which may have been influenced by Greg Cox's novel on the subject admittedly, was that originally Ceti Alpha V was a pretty hostile planet, but not a wasteland...at least not entirely. Off the top of my head I imagine it being a rather more hospitable version of Skull Island, minus the natives.

As I think I mentioned above, it's not that Khan and his followers couldn't have eventually developed the technology for spaceflight there, it's that they'd be starting with raw resources.
Kirk and Spock agree with you.

Space Seed wrote:
KIRK: Mister Spock, our heading takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
SPOCK: Quite correct, Captain. Planet number five there is habitable, although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
KIRK: But no more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning. Those men went on to tame a continent, Mister Khan. Can you tame a world?
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Old October 20 2013, 12:37 AM   #52
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ But it did come up again, as recently as "Measure of a Man".

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
And given what Khan could do regardless of being centuries behind the curve. I don't even think it's a good idea to give them their own planet.
But like I said, Ceti Alpha V had absolutely no technological base. It was basically just an empty wasteland, and that was even before its neighbor exploded. There would be nothing - ever - out of which Khan COULD have built a starship.
Not Khan, but his descendents two or three generations down the line would have built some pretty bitchin ones.
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Old October 20 2013, 03:22 AM   #53
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

This actually has me wondering how long it might have taken them to develop spaceflight given that they had the knowledge but lacked the developed materials.

Makes me wonder how long it would take ordinary humans too, actually.
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Old October 20 2013, 10:13 AM   #54
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

I guess has Khan had '5 times the strength' of humans it's reasonable to assume he's x5 with everything else too, so a fifth of the time? Whatever that is...
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Old October 20 2013, 11:58 AM   #55
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
The 'advanced' Feds of Picard's time had no problem disassembling Lore. I have no problem seeing a 'Vulcan-destroyed' timeline of 1 century prior to Picard doing whatever they wanted.
They were also still at the point where they questioned whether Data could be considered a person at all. It's easy to justify disassembling a dangerous machine.
No, Data had already been judged as a sentient being and with all the rights that entails.
I don't know exactly how the TNG timeline went, whether Lore was disassembled before or after Data's trial, but my main point wasn't really about the exact legal status of Data. It was about the fact that 24th century humans still naturally assume that a machine is not sentient, unless and until proven otherwise.
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Old October 20 2013, 01:04 PM   #56
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Lore was disassembled by Data himself (offscreen) at the end of Descend Part 2 I think.


Well, if it were up to me, I'd have offered Khan a deal of pleading guilty and swearing an oath of accepting the full punishment of the law in exchange for a pardon of his people as soon as a suitable colony world could be found.
And have him record a message to them not to ever try to free/avenge him so his sacrifice remains meaningful and their freedom untouched.
Or maybe even let them know in person.
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Old October 20 2013, 03:35 PM   #57
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ But it did come up again, as recently as "Measure of a Man".

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
And given what Khan could do regardless of being centuries behind the curve. I don't even think it's a good idea to give them their own planet.
But like I said, Ceti Alpha V had absolutely no technological base. It was basically just an empty wasteland, and that was even before its neighbor exploded. There would be nothing - ever - out of which Khan COULD have built a starship.
Not Khan, but his descendents two or three generations down the line would have built some pretty bitchin ones.
Out of WHAT? If you took Khan's people and stuck them in the middle of a forest or a meadow, what could they possibly use to make a starship? They could make a house, but that'd be it, really.
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Old October 20 2013, 05:03 PM   #58
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

I dunno, normal humans managed to come pretty far by essentially being stuck in the middle of forests and meadows...
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Old October 21 2013, 05:15 AM   #59
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
... But like I said, Ceti Alpha V had absolutely no technological base. It was basically just an empty wasteland, and that was even before its neighbor exploded. There would be nothing - ever - out of which Khan COULD have built a starship.
Not Khan, but his descendents two or three generations down the line would have built some pretty bitchin ones.
Yes, if you know what you are aiming for, its a lot easier to get there. How long that takes is harder to gauge but it wouldn't take forever.
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Old October 21 2013, 01:21 PM   #60
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

How about handing Khan over to Kronos for some Klingon justice?
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