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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 18 2013, 05:21 PM   #31
iguana_tonante
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Gaith wrote: View Post
I can't imagine him consenting to be frozen again
Franklin wrote: View Post
Frozen to await trial as opposed to being incarcerated? Odd.
Actually, given his motives in this movie, I think it's not unbelievable that he asked to be re-frozen with his cohorts, waiting for the Federation to find a way to deal with them.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:49 PM   #32
Jeyl
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).
Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:56 PM   #33
Gaith
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Are you seriously saying that its immoral to use stasis tech, and that it qualifies as murder despite that fact that the person is STILL ALIVE, seeing as they shoved Kirk into a cryo tube TO KEEP HIM ALIVE.
Dude, chillax with the shouting - you're not so beautifully brilliant it demeans your honor to participate in this thread. The simple truth is that scientific definitions of life vary, and individuals in fictional states of stasis presumably fail several definitions of being alive. Furthermore, I should think the moral disctinction between indefinitely freezing someone you don't want to deal with and very temporarily doing the same for that person's immediate survival obvious.


Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And its probably safer to keep him on ice for the time being seeing as the two times the whole lets dump the extremely dangerous egomaniac augments on a planet and forget about them they escaped the moment a starship showed up.
I addressed the need for surveillance way back in the OP.


grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
considering he's already been unleashed once to disastrous results, I think a truly 'ethical' solution in terms of what the Federation should do with him would have to include some consideration of the possibility that re-freezing could eventually lead to another escape, possibly in a time where no one has the ability to stop him.
That's a great point - indefinite freezing, by definition, means that some sort of unforseen disaster could free him at an unsafe time.

All that said, for sake of Pete, he's an augment, not a Q - he may be smart and strong, but Kirk Prime beat his ass with a stick, and nuSpock outwitted him. There's absolutely no basis for believing the UFP couldn't safely lock him up for the duration of his natural life span.


... And as for the aforementioned canon comics, if a trial follows the freezing, I guess that answers that. Still some pretty sloppy moviemaking.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:57 PM   #34
grendelsbayne
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).
Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.
I would think that's rather obvious: massive violence, just the same way Spock stopped Khan this time around. The only difference is that 20th century earth would have no qualms about executing a man like Khan once they had him in their power.
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Old October 18 2013, 06:28 PM   #35
The Cubed Ho
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Gaith wrote: View Post
I can't imagine him consenting to be frozen again
Agreed. And I can't believe Starfleet would allow the possibility of Khan defrosting to cause more trouble. Of course it's for sequel possibilities, but if it does happen, I hope they free him in a surprising AND feasible way. I suspect they'll choose other villains for the remainder of the series. They won't recast Khan anytime soon and Cumberbatch's level of popularity is decreasing the time in his schedule (if this year in particular is any indication).

I've mentioned earlier that freeing him would likely to lead to his death for purposes of varying plot outcomes. The chances of him being frozen again at the end of TREK 3/4/5/whichever are virtually zero.
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Old October 18 2013, 06:28 PM   #36
Crazy Eddie
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
I took the ending as a pseudo-nod to Raiders of the Lost Ark: he was being studied by top men.
Exactly.
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Old October 18 2013, 06:38 PM   #37
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).
Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.
I would think that's rather obvious: massive violence, just the same way Spock stopped Khan this time around. The only difference is that 20th century earth would have no qualms about executing a man like Khan once they had him in their power.
That plus the fact that bullets don't have a stun setting.
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Old October 18 2013, 07:13 PM   #38
Chemahkuu
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post

Kind of makes you wonder how 20th century Earth managed to defeat these race of supermen if 23rd century technology can't to jack.
I would think that's rather obvious: massive violence, just the same way Spock stopped Khan this time around. The only difference is that 20th century earth would have no qualms about executing a man like Khan once they had him in their power.
That plus the fact that bullets don't have a stun setting.
Yup, a 50. Cal to the chest will put an Augment down just as fast.
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Old October 18 2013, 08:58 PM   #39
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
I can't imagine him consenting to be frozen again
Franklin wrote: View Post
Frozen to await trial as opposed to being incarcerated? Odd.
Actually, given his motives in this movie, I think it's not unbelievable that he asked to be re-frozen with his cohorts, waiting for the Federation to find a way to deal with them.
That makes good sense. I posted months ago (I'm still talking about this movie? Egads, what am I doing with my life?) that I thought the way Khan was dealt with was actually more or less an act of mercy. I thought I saw a peaceful and serene look on Khan's face in the cryo tube, as if to convey he was there at his wish.
So whether it was before or after a trial, he probably requested that he be allowed to rejoin his family by being refrozen, and the request was granted. Fits in with the theme, too.
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Old October 18 2013, 09:49 PM   #40
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Do we know if there was indeed an "if/when" clause to "fix" The Augments? If their intention is to leave them frozen forever, that really is no different to execution.

But, yea, if there is no agreed Sentence Period and it's completely arbitrarily forever, then you can be sure, one day they'll escape (Even if it's not for thousands of years), and they'll be pissed with good reason. If there's an agreed sentence period or ability to deal with them, then there's hope for a rehabilitation (Though are they proud of who they are, and don't want to be neutered? We don't even neuter Pedophiles)
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Old October 18 2013, 10:05 PM   #41
Franklin
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Do we know if there was indeed an "if/when" clause to "fix" The Augments? If their intention is to leave them frozen forever, that really is no different to execution.

But, yea, if there is no agreed Sentence Period and it's completely arbitrarily forever, then you can be sure, one day they'll escape (Even if it's not for thousands of years), and they'll be pissed with good reason. If there's an agreed sentence period or ability to deal with them, then there's hope for a rehabilitation (Though are they proud of who they are, and don't want to be neutered? We don't even neuter Pedophiles)
Rehabilitation, huh? Another twist in their possible fate.

You know, maybe it was by accident, but it's obvious from this thread that the vague way Khan was dealt with at the end of STID really does raise one of those "big questions" good "Star Trek" is said to have dealt with.
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Old October 19 2013, 03:34 AM   #42
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

I highly doubt the Augments can be fixed or rehabilitated. It's literally in their DNA to be what they are - ruthless conquerors. They can't be anything else. So the only safe and humane thing would be to either keep them frozen, or put them on an uninhabited planet where they can't threaten anyone ever again.
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Old October 19 2013, 04:44 AM   #43
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Who put them in stasis? It's my understanding they put themselves in that state as part of their escape.
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Old October 19 2013, 10:15 AM   #44
Captain Jed R.
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

If one were to examine the morality of just sticking Khan back in his can, it might be a it off, but this is one of those things where "looking cool" and "dramatic license" outweigh what would actually occur. Unfortunately.

Oh, and I take some exception to the idea that death and cryo-stasis can be compared, primarily on the basis that cryo-stasis can be reversed with a few button presses. Death can't, though I wish to God it could. Morally speaking, it's more like a kind of life imprisonment, except that unlike actuallife imprisonment, the prisoners won't have to live with the various problems with imprisonment, like crap food, bad guards and eventually dying of old age. Plus, they can be woken up one day. It's basically what they put themselves in for anyway.
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Old October 19 2013, 05:38 PM   #45
Dale Sams
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

The 'advanced' Feds of Picard's time had no problem disassembling Lore. I have no problem seeing a 'Vulcan-destroyed' timeline of 1 century prior to Picard doing whatever they wanted.
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