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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 18 2013, 03:31 AM   #16
WarpFactorZ
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

I took the ending as a pseudo-nod to Raiders of the Lost Ark: he was being studied by top men. That is, Khan was placed on trial, sentenced to whatever (life on some penal colony somewhere), but was secretly whisked away by Section 31 for further "study." The out-of-universe bonus being that he is still alive, and primed for a "Return of Khan" sequel...
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Old October 18 2013, 05:20 AM   #17
Kabraxal
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
I took the ending as a pseudo-nod to Raiders of the Lost Ark: he was being studied by top men. That is, Khan was placed on trial, sentenced to whatever (life on some penal colony somewhere), but was secretly whisked away by Section 31 for further "study." The out-of-universe bonus being that he is still alive, and primed for a "Return of Khan" sequel...
This... I took more from it that he got the public trial, public as in Kirk and gang were appeased, then S31 took over and did what they had been doing in secret.

And there is no way they were going to kill off the character when there is so much there to work with if they can find a means to bring him back. You don't just waste that oppotunity.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:25 AM   #18
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
it stands to reason that whatever society Khan and his followers would eventually build would have the exact same basic motivations as Khan himself: one psychotic augment is already bad news, so what do you plan to do when a whole race of them suddenly shows up with warp drives and starships they designed all by themselves?
Ceti Alpha V had no technological base. There would be nothing which Khan and his gang could possibly use to build a starship. Placing Khan's people there would be effectively shutting them away for good. Which was the intention, in the original episode...it's both safe (for the Federation) and humane (to Khan). It's win-win, really.

The only thing that threw that plan off was the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI.
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Old October 18 2013, 07:04 AM   #19
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Well, it's possible Khan and his people would have eventually achieved space travel, they'd just be starting from scratch technologically. But at least they (or at least Khan himself) had some of the knowledge of how to do it, it would just be a matter of getting the resources together.

Though it certainly seems Ceti Alpha VI exploding put the kibosh on anything other than basic survival.
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Old October 18 2013, 07:34 AM   #20
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Gaith wrote: View Post
Was anyone else seriously put off by the ethics of Starfleet's treatment of Kahn (i.e., re-freezing him)?
In a universe where it's too much to ask for narrative coherency or organizational believability from Starfleet, asking for ethical or judicial consistency is sure to be a bridge too far.
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Old October 18 2013, 02:03 PM   #21
Gaith
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Harvey wrote: View Post
Bob Orci did say in his interview with the Mission Log guys that Khan was supposed to be frozen, but awaiting trial, at the end of the movie.
Huh - I heard that interview, but must have missed that bit. Cheers.



Franklin wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Bob Orci did say in his interview with the Mission Log guys that Khan was supposed to be frozen, but awaiting trial, at the end of the movie.
I'm not sure if that makes sense, Mr. Orci. Frozen to await trial as opposed to being incarcerated? Odd.
Yeah, it makes no sense at all. Time in stasis is time denied him to coordinate with his attorneys. I'm pretty sure the writers wanted the Raiders callback first and foremost, and threw in their not-at-all-onscreen "awaiting trial" nonsense second.



DonIago wrote: View Post
As a wussy liberal, I see the difference as being that he's NOT.DEAD.
I assume he's got no pulse and no brain function while in cryo stasis. Even if the possibility of reviving him exists, that sounds pretty "dead" to me, and therefore ethically unacceptable on the authorites' behalf.
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Old October 18 2013, 02:53 PM   #22
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Maybe the trial was before the re-freezing.

I sentence you to re-freezing!
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Old October 18 2013, 03:24 PM   #23
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Total speculation here:

Trial occurs (as is happening in the comics). Court concludes Khan is suffering from an illness for which there is no cure (his "savage nature") at present and proposes re-freezing him until such time he and his fellow travellers can be "cured". Protests (legal and, perhaps, social) ensue about the "barbarity" of such a sentence but the court stands firm based on a lack of death penalty and based on the devastation wrought by one augment. It's an uncomfortable solution, but the best they feel they can do.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:05 PM   #24
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

We shouldn't ignore the possibility that Khan -asked- to be refrozen.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:13 PM   #25
Ryan8bit
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Typically criminals don't get to pick their sentencing though. If he told them he wanted to die, they probably wouldn't allow that either.

I think Ovation's idea is probably the best. We saw in DS9 that they still had issues treating certain genetically engineered patients. They probably just don't have the tech yet to treat it (which is kind of silly, they should have that kind of stuff by then).
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Old October 18 2013, 04:17 PM   #26
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

I'm not suggesting any judiciary would freeze him just because he asked, but it might have been a mitigating circumstance in their decision. Just sayin'.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:37 PM   #27
Hartzilla2007
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Gaith wrote: View Post
I assume he's got no pulse and no brain function while in cryo stasis.
Even if the possibility of reviving him exists, that sounds pretty "dead" to me, and therefore ethically unacceptable on the authorites' behalf.
1) There is no "even if" on reviving them seeing as he was in cryo when they found him and they mentioned IN THE FILM that they can revive him.

2) Are you seriously saying that its immoral to use stasis tech, and that it qualifies as murder despite that fact that the person is STILL ALIVE, seeing as they shoved Kirk into a cryo tube TO KEEP HIM ALIVE.

So no its not murder to re-freeze him.

And its probably safer to keep him on ice for the time being seeing as the two times the whole lets dump the extremely dangerous egomaniac augments on a planet and forget about them they escaped the moment a starship showed up.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:41 PM   #28
grendelsbayne
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

The way I see it, the biggest moral issue with re-freezing would not be any perceived similarity to the death penalty, or even discomfort for Khan (he won't actually feel anything, anyway). It would be the fact that the Federation is sort of just absolving themselves of dealing with him at all, maybe even risking that he might do the same damage to another generation sometime in the future.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:44 PM   #29
Hartzilla2007
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
The way I see it, the biggest moral issue with re-freezing would not be any perceived similarity to the death penalty, or even discomfort for Khan (he won't actually feel anything, anyway). It would be the fact that the Federation is sort of just absolving themselves of dealing with him at all, maybe even risking that he might do the same damage to another generation sometime in the future.
So basically you don't like the sealed evil in a can trope.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:51 PM   #30
grendelsbayne
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Re: STID: The Ethics of the Ending

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
The way I see it, the biggest moral issue with re-freezing would not be any perceived similarity to the death penalty, or even discomfort for Khan (he won't actually feel anything, anyway). It would be the fact that the Federation is sort of just absolving themselves of dealing with him at all, maybe even risking that he might do the same damage to another generation sometime in the future.
So basically you don't like the sealed evil in a can trope.
Not saying I dislike it as a story - but considering he's already been unleashed once to disastrous results, I think a truly 'ethical' solution in terms of what the Federation should do with him would have to include some consideration of the possibility that re-freezing could eventually lead to another escape, possibly in a time where no one has the ability to stop him.

Of course, having him imprisoned also runs the risk of escape, so it would be a question of which risk is viewed as most acceptable.

Personally, for me, I think it's entirely possible the most ethical option here very well could be execution, but I agree the Federation would never really be able to accept that.
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